First Refreshed Edge, Shapton 16k

Just 'refreshed' by first edge. The Burrell Top Flight (my first straight) that I got on the 6th of June hadn't been honed at all since I got it, and I'd used it every day until the 11th of August (when I got my second razor) and maybe every other day since then. I got myself a Shapton 16k and a Norton 4/8. Today I bought a cheap ($25) 'Ice Bear' flattening Stone and a Nagura cleaning stone. I drew the grid on the Shapton and soaked the flattening stone for about 15 mins (not sure if I needed to but I did anyway) and did 30 figure eights. The grid was almost gone but not quite; so I did about 70 more. I then re-did the grid and did it again. I noticed the second time I still had to remove some low points on one corner. I then cleaned the stone with the Nagura Cleaning Stone and made a little bit of a slurry. I passed the blade over the stone, first trying a figure eight; but when I couldn't get that, going diagonal, i.e. blade held 'toe down' flat on the stone, moved up parallel to the edge and then down toe up parallel to the edge; oh, I bevelled the edges a bit too before I honed. Did about 20 laps. I had to use both hands to push the blade, I couldn't keep it quite flat using one hand. I only pushed across the stone; not down. I kept grinding a bit of the shoulder by mistake. Then I slowed all the way down and REALLY concentrated. People say that the only real test is to shave, so I did, even though I'd only shaved 6 hours before. It seems OK, maybe not as sharp as when I go it, but maybe better than before. Even did ATG on the neck. It struggled a little on the neck area ATG (which I find is always difficult; that technique needs a certain edge with a certain steady hand and a certain lather) the edge could be sharper, but for a first attempt, I'm happy. I really thought I'd end up with a destroyed blade. I did practise a bit on the one I'm 'restoring' (AKA destroying) first...

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I think you need to practice , and learn , the "X" stroke . It is the only stroke you need to know for refreshing the edge . I don't know where you got the idea to hone in a figure 8 stroke , but to the best of my knowledge the figure 8 is only used for lapping , not honing . You should get an awesome edge from a Shapton 16k , but it sounds like you're not . IME , when it comes to refreshing an edge , less is more . 5 "X" strokes on my Shapton 15k is all that's needed . I think you should practice the "X" stroke with the razor you're restoring , using one hand only . Once you think you have it down , take your good razor , and give it 5 very light "X" stokes on your Norton 8k , then give it 5 very light "X" strokes on your 16k . Strop it up and see how it shaves .

It sounds like you didn't destroy the edge at least, that's
a good start! The honing technique will come in time. I
would recommend perusing the wiki for technique tips,
but I'll throw in some of my own:

- Don't worry about low spots in the corners, you won't
be honing there anyways

- I wouldn't leave a slurry from the nagura stone on the
Shapton, just water is all you need for honing

- Keeping the blade flat on the stone with one hand is
about balancing the razor between your thumb and index
finger on the shank, and pinky and ring finger underneath
the scales. Holding your elbow up while you hone seems
to help with this

Good luck! :)

- Scott

20 laps on the Shapton does sound a bit excessive. Assuming that your hone is flat, test after increments of 5 (like stated above, using ultra light x strokes) using the TPT at first. You should see almost immediate improvement. Once your edge is nice and sticky sharp try a shave test. If your razor doesn't respond well to a high grit finisher there is either something wrong with your technique, your hone or the edge is too far gone for the particular hone. In that case you would have to drop down to 8k level or do a small pyramid before going back to your high grit hone.

I don't know that starting out with a nagura (slurry) is a good idea. Lapping's a great idea, though. Uh, do you have a microscope for checking out the edge and the scratch pattern (or lack thereof) of the bevel?

Get a DMT 8C for lapping, the problem with your lapping stone, is that it needs lapping too. :)
The edge right off the 16k can be a little harsh, a few laps on CrOX smooths it out nicely.
When I lapped my Shaptons I found they all to be very flat, they didn't need much lapping at all.

Oh Dammit!! No wonder I couldn't get any results.. I used the glass side....I am a dumb ass..

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Originally Posted by Wintchase

Oh Dammit!! No wonder I couldn't get any results.. I used the glass side....I am a dumb ass..

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Lol, are you serious?

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Originally Posted by Blix

Lol, are you serious?

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yea....I really am....not kidding...I really brain farted and tried to sharpen it on the glass side....I don't know, it made sense at the time..

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Originally Posted by Wintchase

yea....I really am....not kidding...I really brain farted and tried to sharpen it on the glass side....I don't know, it made sense at the time..

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Oh my. Well, now you are in for a treat though! :)

Well..the reason why i did it on the glass side was that for years i final honed on a bottle..my grandfather taught me to use a straight on a hone and for final honing use a glass smooth bottle.."so, i just figured it was a glass type hone.....don't look at me... I am hideous....

I dont think you should need more than 10 strokes on the 16k Shapton. Its an aggressive stone and too many strokes can make the edge start to microchip IME.

Keep practising though, its good fun! :)

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Originally Posted by dave5225

I think you need to practice , and learn , the "X" stroke . It is the only stroke you need to know for refreshing the edge . I don't know where you got the idea to hone in a figure 8 stroke , but to the best of my knowledge the figure 8 is only used for lapping , not honing . You should get an awesome edge from a Shapton 16k , but it sounds like you're not . IME , when it comes to refreshing an edge , less is more . 5 "X" strokes on my Shapton 15k is all that's needed . I think you should practice the "X" stroke with the razor you're restoring , using one hand only . Once you think you have it down , take your good razor , and give it 5 very light "X" stokes on your Norton 8k , then give it 5 very light "X" strokes on your 16k . Strop it up and see how it shaves .

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Oh, actually, I miss-typed that, I meant to say X stroke not figure eight!

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Originally Posted by AxelH

I don't know that starting out with a nagura (slurry) is a good idea. Lapping's a great idea, though. Uh, do you have a microscope for checking out the edge and the scratch pattern (or lack thereof) of the bevel?

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Looks like I'll not use a slurry next time. I might borrow my grandson's USB microscope to check th edge.

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Originally Posted by Stubear

I dont think you should need more than 10 strokes on the 16k Shapton. Its an aggressive stone and too many strokes can make the edge start to microchip IME.

Keep practising though, its good fun! :)

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You know, as stupid as this sounds, I can't remember if I did 10 or 20. Of course I count 1 pass on the strop as being back AND forward, I can't remember if I counted the same on the hone! Then again, on some videos I've seen, where they say 30 small circles, and then go on and do what seem like hundreds, I'd say my numeracy skills are not that bad (and at least I used the right side :-)

No, it didn't take much lapping. I guess I could alwys try doing it on the wet and dry paper I have stuck on a glass topped table, but of course glass flexes, too. I don't understand how a 16k can be harsh? I've read you should be able to shave off an 8k? Why is a Shapton an 'aggresive' stone? I mean, it IS less aggressive than a Norton 4/8 isn't it??? Now I'm confused!!!

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

No, it didn't take much lapping. I guess I could alwys try doing it on the wet and dry paper I have stuck on a glass topped table, but of course glass flexes, too. I don't understand how a 16k can be harsh? I've read you should be able to shave off an 8k? Why is a Shapton an 'aggresive' stone? I mean, it IS less aggressive than a Norton 4/8 isn't it??? Now I'm confused!!!

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The Shapton is a fast/aggressive stone , as in fast cutting, not in grit. And yes it can be harsh-ish sometimes.

And if you ever decide to buy more stones for honing, buy more Shaptons GS, it's an amazingly good system IMO! :)

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Originally Posted by Blix

The Shapton is a fast/aggressive stone , as in fast cutting, not in grit. And yes it can be harsh-ish sometimes.

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Oh, thanks Blix, I get it. I was relating grit size to speed of cutting. But that's not neceserily the case, is it? I guess it depends on what the grit is made of and the shape of the particles too? I guess it might have been better if I'd stuck with one system.

At this point it might make sense to just hone
the razor and watch what parts of the hone
go grey from steel.

Rinse the hone under running water and rub it
mostly clean with you hand. Hone your razor
smoothly and slowly no more than 20 up-and-down
hone trips. Rinse, dry, strop and shave test.
BTW: Twenty is a lot... you can try 5, 10, 15, 20 and
discover what works for you in the long term.

The hone will build up a light gray coating that
can let you see when and where the razor and
hone interact. It will not be perfect but as long
as all the razor contacts some of the hone at
one time or another it is doing the right thing.

You can also use the magic marker test to validate
that the razor and hone are interacting... wipe a
water proof magic marker (easy to see color) on
the edge. Let it dry and then one or two hone strokes.
If the hone wipes the marker ink off the length of the
edge you are honing effectively.

Hi niftyshaving,
Thanks for the advice. I did 5 up and down strokes on the W&B tonight, I'll see what it feels like tomorrow. I also tried out the Norton 4/8 with the pretty blunt Emil Kronenberg I'm trying to polish and hone, with not a great deal of success. I intend to hand polish it with just wet and dry and some polishing pad things I got from the hardware shop. All the rust is removed but of course it's left behind some pitting. I probably need a couple of weeks of polishing with 600 or 1200 now, not sure whether to stop at 600 or not. We'll see. I'm finding it quite relaxing. Then I'll try and hone it; I wonder how long it'll take me before I can shave with it?

It kinda sounds you are doing this with no plan behind it, have you watched Glens honing videos?
Start here:
gssixgun Honing on a Norton 4-8 - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Blix

It kinda sounds you are doing this with no plan behind it, have you watched Glens honing videos?
Start here:

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Ha! Well said Blix! Don't hold back! :-)

Well, not NO plan, but not a LOT of a plan. Yes, I've watched those videos and lots more. I'm wanting to simply 'refresh' the edge at this stage of the two good razors I have. I don't believe I need to 'set a bevel' but admit to not really knowing exactly what that is. I'm actually assuming that setting the bevel is ensuring that the angles of both sides of the blade are equal in that they meet exactly (or as close to possible) at the point 1/2 the thickness of the blade itself, or something like that...??? I also know the edge should be consistent along the length of the blade.

Actually something someone just said in an email has made me think. It was along the lines of needing to hone the razor I'm hoping to buy with tape on the edge; as that's how it was last honed. I guess that would change the angle of the edge, wouldn't it? If my razors were honed with tape on the spine (I didn't use any) would that mean more material needs to be removed (i.e. angle would be less acute).

Sorry for my ignorance, it's ages since I did geometry at school and I'm actually getting rather nervous about honing now...

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Ha! Well said Blix! Don't hold back! :-)

Well, not NO plan, but not a LOT of a plan. Yes, I've watched those videos and lots more. I'm wanting to simply 'refresh' the edge at this stage of the two good razors I have. I don't believe I need to 'set a bevel' but admit to not really knowing exactly what that is. I'm actually assuming that setting the bevel is ensuring that the angles of both sides of the blade are equal in that they meet exactly (or as close to possible) at the point 1/2 the thickness of the blade itself, or something like that...??? I also know the edge should be consistent along the length of the blade.

Actually something someone just said in an email has made me think. It was along the lines of needing to hone the razor I'm hoping to buy with tape on the edge; as that's how it was last honed. I guess that would change the angle of the edge, wouldn't it? If my razors were honed with tape on the spine (I didn't use any) would that mean more material needs to be removed (i.e. angle would be less acute).

Sorry for my ignorance, it's ages since I did geometry at school and I'm actually getting rather nervous about honing now...

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Hehe, I'm sorry if it came out a little crass, that wasn't the intention. :)

If your razors were honed with tape on the spine, you definitely need to use tape on them using your Shapton.

If you can get one of them to shave nicely again, you should just roll up your sleeves and start learning honing from the ground up, you can set the bevel starting on your 4k. Start now. You'll thank me later ;)

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Ha! Well said Blix! Don't hold back! :-)

Well, not NO plan, but not a LOT of a plan. Yes, I've watched those videos and lots more. I'm wanting to simply 'refresh' the edge at this stage of the two good razors I have. I don't believe I need to 'set a bevel' but admit to not really knowing exactly what that is. I'm actually assuming that setting the bevel is ensuring that the angles of both sides of the blade are equal in that they meet exactly (or as close to possible) at the point 1/2 the thickness of the blade itself, or something like that...??? I also know the edge should be consistent along the length of the blade.

Actually something someone just said in an email has made me think. It was along the lines of needing to hone the razor I'm hoping to buy with tape on the edge; as that's how it was last honed. I guess that would change the angle of the edge, wouldn't it? If my razors were honed with tape on the spine (I didn't use any) would that mean more material needs to be removed (i.e. angle would be less acute).

Sorry for my ignorance, it's ages since I did geometry at school and I'm actually getting rather nervous about honing now...

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Relax... to refresh an edge just hone it lightly on a finishing hone. Your Shapton will do just fine.

Wet the hone and rub it clean with the palm of your hand under running
water.

Touching the spine to the hone first lay the razor flat on the hone. Draw it down
the hone pushing the sharp edge first. At the end of the hone lift the sharp
edge first up and over so it is now facing the reverse direction. Hone in the
reverse direction and count it as one.

Five to 15 strokes followed by a smooth visit to the strop should
do the trick if the razor was sharp enough to shave in the previous week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blix

Hehe, I'm sorry if it came out a little crass, that wasn't the intention. :)

If your razors were honed with tape on the spine, you definitely need to use tape on them using your Shapton.

If you can get one of them to shave nicely again, you should just roll up your sleeves and start learning honing from the ground up, you can set the bevel starting on your 4k. Start now. You'll thank me later ;)

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Hi Blix, no probs! Just some Aussie humour!
I didn't use tape, but am guessing it was used to set the bevel (woops!). I have my reasons for not wanting to use tape (i.e. always havign to use it, maybe wanting to hone out bush when I go camping and maybe not having tape in my pack, maybe leaving plastic residue ont he stone???
Anyway, the W&B I refreshed seems to have a 'thicker edge than the Burrell, but I actually don’t know if it did in the beginning! What I mean is, am I right in thinking that if one uses tape, the angle of the edge will be steeper than if one doesn’t? And IF tape was used initially, and now I haven’t used it, I would need to remove more material to create an edge, wouldn’t I? However, at the end of the day everyone says, “yes, but what did it SHAVE like?” Well, I’m happy to report that after all my mucking around, it shaved lovely this morning, nice and smooth, buttering dry toast sound and even very nice ATG. It could still be sharper, but couldn’t every blade always?

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

You know, as stupid as this sounds, I can't remember if I did 10 or 20. Of course I count 1 pass on the strop as being back AND forward, I can't remember if I counted the same on the hone! Then again, on some videos I've seen, where they say 30 small circles, and then go on and do what seem like hundreds, I'd say my numeracy skills are not that bad (and at least I used the right side :-)

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I think we have all been here, either while stropping or honing. Numbers aren't that important as feel to me anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Sorry for my ignorance, it's ages since I did geometry at school and I'm actually getting rather nervous about honing now...

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No need to be nervous, just slow down a bit, rethink, and have fun.