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How can you tell if the scales on a razor are "gassing"? And if they do I've read you are suppose to isolate that razor from other celluloid scales? Does anyone store celluloid scales in a way to protect the other scales if you happen to not use the razor for a while and it "gases"?
Thanks,
John
you can tell the scales are gassing because the blade rusts, and other razors in the area also start rusting. I'm not aware of a better way to detect this condition. You could probably store your razors in ziplock freezer bags, but even that won't keep it completely isolated should one start outgassing.
Keeping the razors out of bright light when not in use seems to help reduce the likelihood of celluloid decomposition, and it seems like the marbleized or iced scales are the most common culprits.
Usually celluloid has a subtle vinnegar like smell to it if you rub it slightly and when they start to deteriorate that smell becomes more pronounced and you don't need to rub it to get that response. Of course if you have rust or corrosion where the blade is near the stuff you have your smoking gun.
This is great info for us Newbies guys!
Thanks,
John
The marble colored celluloid is extremely prone to this. There is a collection of razors on ebay right now that demonstrates this extremely well. There is a gunstock razor in one corner and it is horribly rusted and the razors around it are somewhat rusted with the worst rust occurring nearest the razor with the celluloid rot. It's like a circle of rust that extends from the problem razor.
Celluloid deterioration or "rot" cannot be stopped by any process I know of. The only solution is to remove the handles and discard them if the blade is still worth saving - if not, discard the entire razor.
Celluloid rot usually is accompanied by not only a rather pungent celluloid smell but usually also some disfiguration/discoloration of the celluloid. Discoloration of the scales accompanied by notably severe rust that corresponds to that discoloration is proof positive to me that it's celluloid rot. The latter alone is all the proof I need. I've had hundreds of celluloid razors without problems but I've had a few that did have celluloid rot. The stuff eats the blade - not just rusting it. It will literally eat holes right through the steel.
Do you know the item number on Ebay?
How does gassing happen then? I don't understand the concept, but from the one post it seems to come from the celluloid and it being left int he sun can create the reaction?
The molecules start breaking down and releasing a gas vapor - I thought it was ammonia but I could be wrong, it hasn't happened to me yet. The gas acts as a catalys for the other celluloid molecules to start breaking down, and you get a chain reaction. I don't know that it's ever been proven that light encourages this process, but its prevalence in the translucent celluloids would seem indicative, I would think that the dark celluloids are protected partly because the dye tends to absorb the light instead of the celluloid material. Celluloid rot can happen even without the stimulus of light, it's just not a very stable plastic. Lots of the old hollywood movies have disappeared because of this as well, rotting away in their canisters.
Here's what can happen. The offending razor is the one in the upper right - the gunstock marble colored celluloid. This particular celluloid has a high incidence of celluloid rot. I've encountered it before with this pattern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
Is there a general rule of thumb of how many years minimum (under the worst conditions) it would take for this chemical breakdown to start?
Regularly disinfection and coating the scales in protective oils won't avoid/delay this process?
I know some of the razors I've seen in this kind of condition were probably made in the 40's. I don't think there's an absolute life expectancy for this stuff. I'm guessing but I think razors that are enclosed and subject to high heat (like in an attick) and worse, direct sunlight or UV exposure simply start breaking down and once the process starts it's irreversible as far as I know.
For those that don't know, celluloid is properly called "cellulose nitrate". ABOUT CELLULOID
It's chemical composition isn't far removed from gunpowder and it's extremely volatile stuff. It can go up in flames with just a spark or any agressive grinding, such as on a belt sander. Trying to melt it with a match or lighter will result in it immediately bursting into searing flames and generating quite acrid smoke. It is, however, a good product with characteristics that make it ideal for razor handles and is still being used today for a number of applications, including handles for both knives and razors.
Wow...that is really interesting...I would have NEVER guessed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBull
how does one shape, grind, and sand celluloid without destroying it then? Or is it simply poured and molded?
You can sand it dry or wet, you just don't want to get it hot so it's safer sanding it wet.
It is safer to grind wet. My sander is a high power job and it will send smoking tracers across the shop almost immediately if I stick the celluloid to it, LOL. I've had the damned stuff burst into acid flames in my hands, too. That sucks. I definitely recommend wet grinding and care needs to be taken even when using a bandsaw on it. I always keep a fire extinguisher close by when working with the stuff.
It is safer to grind wet. My sander is a high power job and it will send smoking tracers across the shop almost immediately if I stick the celluloid to it, LOL. I've had the damned stuff burst into acid flames in my hands, too. That sucks. I definitely recommend wet grinding and care needs to be taken even when using a bandsaw on it. I always keep a fire extinguisher close by when working with the stuff.
Man that is brutal work that celluoid can do to steel.
This might be a reason for me to try out my scale making so this will not be a problem on my one razor. It is not started 'gassing' but it was re-pinned and it was done very sloppily so it is a little loose.
I'm thinking the same thing. I really hate the thought of missing out on some of those nice marbled and cracked ice razors though. I like wood scales a lot anyway. Too bad celluloid does that.
Are the newer scales celluloid or plastic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcleanhead
I have some beautiful celluloid scales that were actually made by Papabull on one of my favorite 8/8 Henckels INOX razors. For the price you just cant get anything more beautiful when it comes to color variation. I like wood too, but when you cant afford ivory, MOP, abolone, or some neat pattern that cant be found naturally Celluloid is the way to go IMO.
Celluloid is still, in my opinion, the premiere synthetic material. It's troublesome to work but is really quite durable and very stable all things considered. Celluloid was first used in the 1870's and there are razors from that period with celluloid scales that are still in very good condition, so I wouldn't get all that worked up over the danger of celluloid rot. It's just something to be aware of. Crossing the street isn't that dangerous if you know to look before crossing. Same thing with celluloid. It isn't bad stuff at all. But it should be kept out of sunlight or heat and should be checked once in a while.
Just a wee bit of esoteric information and cleaning up of loose use (inadvertently I'm sure) of terminology.
Celluloid scales are primarily made of wood...celluloid is mostly processed cellulose; cellulose is one of the primary structural components of wood, the other being lignins. So if you like your celluloid scales...thank a forester :D . So, is celluloid (a plastic) synthetic or organic? A case could be made either way. BTW, the other common wood based plastic is Rayon.
This thread is wild, informative, and entertaining.