Thumb test...

(( I debated Putting this here or in General, but its ending up here ))

Ok, so this thumb test. I've heard it mentioned several times, I even read a few articles about it from classicshaving.com maybe? In any event, im not sure I understand it all to well. What I've gathered so far:

1. Should only be used before using a polishing hone ie... 8k norton
Using this test after a polishing hone will destroy the shaving edge?

2. Im suppose to drawl the blade across my thumb nail? (Sort of makes my skin
crawl)

3. A dull blade with just slide across my nail with no sensation, where as a keen
blade will ?Bite?

I tried using my norton stones for about 30min the other day and I attempted to use this test to see what I could judge from it, but I couldn't really tell a difference. There probably was, and im just not familiar enough to notice it. In any event, I would really appreaciate any feed back you guys could give me on this.

The thumb test is actually touching the blade with your thumb. A sticky sensation tells you it's getting sharp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

The thumb test is actually touching the blade with your thumb. A sticky sensation tells you it's getting sharp.

---

Touching the ball of my thumb to the edge? (Skin crawling more) Basically letting the blade cut a couple layers of skin?

Doing lots of testing like when honing 5-10 blades will rough up the top layer of your skin a bit but it's nothing serious and goes away in a day or two. You won't even notice testing one blade.

Thanks Fire... I think my thumb will be ok... I play an old accoustic guitar a lot and it roughs up my fingers pretty good... So I'll get over it, it still feels creepy though lol...


btw... did you chance your avatar?

Np. I actually tried learning to play the guitar until one night when I got back from the club a bit tipsy, stepped on it and well... That was the end of my learning process lol. The callouses I get from honing my weekly rotation won't come even close to the ones you get from playing the guitar. As for creepy.. Naaa, that's the feeling of success :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Np. I actually tried learning to play the guitar until one night when I got back from the club a bit tipsy, stepped on it and well... That was the end of my learning process lol. The callouses I get from honing my weekly rotation won't come even close to the ones you get from playing the guitar. As for creepy.. Naaa, that's the feeling of success :D

---

lol, Well I have to hit success before I can get the feeling of success. I only pulled the stones out once so far though... so I got time... Sorry to hear about that guitar man... I find a feeling of success when I play my guitar... you spend weeks and weeks trying to learn something, and one day someone asks about the guitar and you break it out and play the song all perfect, and everyone is like... wow. Cant help but stick your chest out a little further... Im starting to get the same feeling when people ask about my razors =P I just cant quite play that tune across my face yet haha.

All it takes are time and practice. On a good note, you'll enjoy every second of the process.

I don't know where you've been reading or hanging out but here is my limited experience. First, before stropping you can check the edge quality by running the blade lengthwise along your thumb nail, drawing it along. It should bite (i.e. it should dig a little into the nail). This has little to do with "finishing hones"; before or after. Although the razor needs to be sharp, otherwise why bother. It should also bite and simultaneoulsy be smooth. Bumpiness indicates its overhoned or still has gaps in edge clarity.

Next, after stropping, you wet your thumb for about 20 seconds and run the thumbprint area across the blade sideways (I use a turning motion crossing the 30 degree angle that I'd be shaving). I don't recommend using any kind of slicing motion on the skin. With experience (and it takes experience) a keen razor will be "readible" between the lands and grooves of your thumbprint (I know it sounds improbable, but they get pretty sharp you know?) A side slicing motion can be used to cut into your thumb but one, its dangerous, and two, even an imperfect edge will cut with a slicing motion. I simply try to ensure that the edge "digs" into the side of the thumbprint groove. This digging is more of a sensation than the physical digging associated with the thumbnail portion of the test. Some describe this as stickiness. I like to take my time and really assess how sticky it is against one land of my thumbprint. I equate the stickiness to a bumpy sortof pass across a few lands and see how well it "slows".

In the beginning you should run the razor over the HHT or your arm hair to affirm your sensation that the razor is sharp. Ofcourse a razor should drop arm hair at a distance without a popping sound. You may have to resort to a shave test depending on your hair courseness, so say some. I actually hunt down the girlfriends finest hairs for my testing (but thats just me).

With practice a rolling sensation over the grooves of the thumb print in a sortof shaving motion will give you a simple feeling of whether the edge is truely sharp or not.

I find this test will work either before or after stropping. I think most guys did it after stropping in the past. It is easier to read the edge after stropping, obviously.

Likely some of the guys that use this test more than me will chime in.

That help a little?

Thanks for indepth feedback AFdavis. It has sorted out a few things for me. I do have a few questions about what you posted though...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

This has little to do with "finishing hones"; before or after.

---

Maybe I could have used a better choice of words. I was refering to the 8k norton hone. I believe I read a thread here on SRP about not using the thumb nail test after using the 8k norton? I could be mistaken of course. Do you think it will damage the edge if I test the blade on my thumb nail after using the 8k stone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Next, after stropping, you wet your thumb for about 20 seconds and run the thumbprint area across the blade sideways (I use a turning motion crossing the 30 degree angle that I'd be shaving).

---

Im not sure exactly what you mean here. Is it like scraping my thumb across the edge of the blade? And the 30 degree angle would be my thumb angling so that the razor is essencially ready to shave my thumb prints off!?

Sorry, im just having a hard time visualizing this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

With practice a rolling sensation over the grooves of the thumb print in a sort of shaving motion will give you a simple feeling of whether the edge is truely sharp or not.

---

Im lost here... is this a different kind of test/motion from earlier?


--- I am going to start confusing myself with all these questions soon lol

I just touch the blade with the thumb and maybe gently run it along the edge a bit. If it sticks, the blade is getting there, if it doesn't, then you need more work on the hone. You can also feel roughness of the edge that way.

First, no. In my opinion conducting a thumb nail test after an 8K is fine. I would actually suggest that it would be prefered.

Second, here is the only rule. Do not do the thumbnail test after stropping. You'll blow the edge.

Third, the thumbnail test is done to assess the edge quality, both sharpness and overhoned. If the razor does not dig at all into the nail it is dull. If it bounces, jumps, makes weird noises or pulls during the stroke (in stops and starts) it is overhoned. If it pulls smoothly and digs into the nail it is sharp and smooth, both really important qualities (smoothness of the edge is a very overlooked criteria in honing).

You can do this test before or after any hone, the grit doesn't matter but your testing general sharpness so you could do it any any point. Since testing after stropping will damage the edge you can imagine someone not doing this test after the 8K since the true test of sharpness will be the thumbpad test. So if thats what you read I won't dispute it. You could use the thumbnail test simply to check for egde quality and not worry about digging at all.

Next, on to the thumbpad test. I pivot the spine in such a way that the edge swipes the thumb and its print. Like I'm strumming the blade for some music. Its that simple. During the swipe you'll get the most feel at about 30 degrees, like your shaving your thumb print. What I feel with a truely sharp razor is the edge catching on the lands of my thumb print and biting into the skin. I can feel the razor as it touches the tops/lands and goes into the grooves of the print. This "catching" feels like a drag or a really finite edge moving over the print of the thumb. You could conversly just swipe your thumb over the egde. I get the most feel of the edge at 30 degrees. Remember the thumb has to have soaked for a while. Atleast thats the classic version of the test.

So the rolling motion that your confused about is me rolling the edge over my thumb print.

So, here is the way I do it (absent a good microscope). Hone on 4K then check that the edge is not overhoned and digs a little via the thumbnail test. Then hone on 8K and do another thumb nail test, expecting at this point that the edge should bite into my nail and remain smooth. Then a few more passes on 8K. Then strop and use my thumbpad to test the edge for sharpness. Failing that I go back to the 8K and return to the strop a few times. Then shave. The razor should draw on my strop and provide a good, if not perfect, shave. I may return again to 8k as the shave test is more reliable to me than even the thumbpad test. The big benefit is I never shave test with a razor that will cause irritation, something that bugs me to no end.

Thanks Alan,

I think I got it now. I haven't gotten a "Sticky" feeling yet, but I can feel a bit of difference in the blades edge between laps. Thanks again.

Your welcome, sorry if I confused you . . . unfortunately this is a process better done by reverse engineering. Hone until you have a perfect razor, then conduct every sharpness test on the planet to get a feel for what your looking for when honing. Another reason to get an edge honed by someone else I guess.

I have a razor out right now. Unfortunatly, I dont use mail to often and I think I sent it out a very slow way... I was expecting like 7-8 bucks, and it was only like 3 or 4 lol... Oh well... until it gets back, I have my shavette and this Ebay razor to play with.

I agree with the testing process that AFDavis uses with one exception. I only use the thumbnail test after the 4000 grit and never when using the 8000. When I am on the 8000 then I only use the thumb pad test and the Hanging Hair Test to indicate if the razor is ready for a shave test.

My reasoning? I feel that the thumbnail test dulls a 8000 edge and is not necessary. The 30x microscope tells me if the razor is overhoned. The thumbnail test is used to determine if the edge has developed an even bevel ( which is the function of the 4000 hone)and to feel if all the nicks are removed. A well developed bevel will lightly draw into the nail evenly for the entire length of the edge. If the nicks are removed then there will be no grabbing or hestitation in the draw. You stay on the 4000 hone until these criteria are met.

Hope this helps,:)

Good advice Randy, the edge should be sharp enough to move off the nail test before 8K (I don't hone with either 4 or 8 K myself very often, thus didn't like that "rule").

I did some research on the thumb test this weekend and noticed something I forgot to mention that I thought was interesting. If the thumb nail test gives two results, then you have a flaw in your honing technique. For example, if it digs in one part of the blade and is smooth at another you need to go back and review your technique.

awsome, thanks for the advice and the help guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Your welcome, sorry if I confused you . . . unfortunately this is a process better done by reverse engineering. Hone until you have a perfect razor, then conduct every sharpness test on the planet to get a feel for what your looking for when honing. Another reason to get an edge honed by someone else I guess.

---

This is very true. My honing took a huge leap forward when I got a blade honed by Joe Chandler and spent a while finding tests that his would pass and mine wouldn't. Armed with that knowledge I was able to quickly adjust my honing technique to pass those tests, and eventually got to the point where I could read the feel of the blade on the hone well enough that i don't really use the hair-popping test much at all anymore (the shapton 15k and translucent arkansas hones are particularly communicative during honing).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mparker762

This is very true. My honing took a huge leap forward when I got a blade honed by Joe Chandler and spent a while finding tests that his would pass and mine wouldn't. Armed with that knowledge I was able to quickly adjust my honing technique to pass those tests, and eventually got to the point where I could read the feel of the blade on the hone well enough that i don't really use the hair-popping test much at all anymore (the shapton 15k and translucent arkansas hones are particularly communicative during honing).

---

What do you mean by 'particularly communicative'?

I have yet to even hone with my norton 4k/8k or strop, and am all ready interested in a finer stone than 8k. I'm in this for the long haul. I intend to get a 15k-ish stone, and 0.25-1 micron diamond pastes. Whether I put these diamond pastes on a paddled strop or hang strop I've yet to decide. I know starting with a paddled strop is recommended, but I'm not in a hurry and have the luxury of approaching things gingerly and in thought out ways.

I must admit I'm getting flustered about how information on straight razors is reaching me. It's like taking a corrispondance course on how to put a round peg in a round hole. There is a small protrusion in the peg and a small crack on the inside of the whole. The next logical thing to do is write a letter to an authority asking if it's fine to procede. Or should I just use my savy wit and line up the protrusion with the crack and 'go for it'. This is how silly my ignorance has been making me.


I'm finding out a great deal of the history certain stones, then stop and wonder, "If I make a pasted hanging strop, do I put paste on both the linen side, and the hyde side?" <---btw, anyone can feel free to answer that :eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icecow

What do you mean by 'particularly communicative'?

---

The feel of the razor on the hone distinctly changes as the razor approaches shaving sharp. The exact nature of the change is hard to describe, but the shapton gets kind of "sticky" as the razor approaches shaving sharp, and the translucent arkansas goes from a smooth sliding feel to more of a scraping feel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icecow

"If I make a pasted hanging strop, do I put paste on both the linen side, and the hyde side?" <---btw, anyone can feel free to answer that :eek:

---

You can do that if you want. I've got two pasted hanging strops, one of them is a two-sided leather strop with flexcut gold on one side and 11k boron carbide on the other, and the other strop is a standard hanging strop with chromium oxide on the leather side only.

I don't really use my hanging strops on my razors very much, they're mostly for my knives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mparker762

I don't really use my hanging strops on my razors very much, they're mostly for my knives.

---

heh, that leads to another dangerous question I've been wanting to ask. I full-on cook time to time, yet keeping my chef knives sharp is still a challenge.
Are the same hones and strops a good way to bring a chefs knife and paring knive back in to shape?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icecow

heh, that leads to another dangerous question I've been wanting to ask. I full-on cook time to time, yet keeping my chef knives sharp is still a challenge.
Are the same hones and strops a good way to bring a chefs knife and paring knive back in to shape?

---

They will do a bang-up job of it, but I'd get a separate set of hones for the kitchen knives, just because I'd hate to cross-contaminate my razors with kitchen bugs.

I keep my kitchen knives sharp with a giant hard arkansas hone (3x8x1.5), followed by the flexcut gold strop, followed by the boron carbide strop. Once the steel stops restoring the edge I usually start back at the flexcut, they only go to the arkansas stone if they're really dull. If the blade gets nicked I've got a coarse norton combination hone (probably 100/400 but I don't really know) that quickly denickifies it before sending it on to the hard arkansas.

I also use the big hard arkansas stone on my razors, but I use the "A" side for them and use the "B" side on the knives.

My smaller pocketknives are done on the lansky, then to the strops.

Wouldn't a ceramic hone do the trick for the kitchen stuff, without the mess? You could get the Spyderco Ultrafine.