Unhappy - What am i doing wrong i cant get my edge sharp enough!!!...

I'm really getting frustrated with my straight razors as i cannot get them sharp enough to perform a easy shave.


Equipment:

Norton 4000/8000 combo
Norton flattening stone
Scruppleworks Stropp with linen and leather side

Razors:
Dovo Bergischer Löewe razor
Puma Gold razor


I have tried and i thought they were sharp enough, but i just cannot get a easy shave with them. my DE razors still feel much sharper

i've tried honing on 4000 / 8000 Norton waterstones and really polish the edge to a mirror finish and it feels sharp

but it just will not shave my beard easely

is it enough to use the norton 8000 as finish ? or should i use paste or other honing equipment as last step pefore stropping to shave ready

this i how i did:

1. Honing on 4000 to set the edge and finish with gentle strockes to polish ( checked the edge with a 60x loupe to ensure even nice edge)
2. Honing on 8000 until mirror finish and eaven edge ( checked the edge with a 60x loupe to ensure even nice edge)
3. Linnen Stropping 50 rounds on my scruppleworks stropp on the linen side
4. Leather Stropping 100 rounds on the scruppleworks leather side
5. Tested Shaving with both the Dovo and the Puma

Result

Dovo feels sharper than Puma but still a bit dull on the cuts of my beard as i need to pull harder than DE razors i use

Puma feels less sharp than the Dovo and had to pull more to get the shave completed, not as comfortable as the Dovo


so i guess they are still not sharp enough

what is the trick and how do i get that super sharp edge, i'm really frustrated that i cannot get the edge as sharp as me DE rasors or sharper

i expected Straight razor shave to be less tough to the skin but i guess i'm not getting the blades sharp enough

Magnus

Could I refer you to this thread?

There's an incredible wealth of information here in regards to the Norton 4/8.
Also, ensure your stopping is up to par and your beard prep is also. I know there's a lot to read on the JaNorton thread, but it's well worth it...

More info here.

How many years of experience do you have honing straight razors? You need a sharp bevel and with an overly aggressive 4k edge you'll tear the edge a bit, without lots of practice. Then, you need to polish the blade a bit after you get a good bevel. That way the razor is sharp and smooth.

Don't use linen after the hone, it'll dull the edge.

You must be patient and repeat a perfect stroke.

The trick is to get a couple of years of experience behind you.

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How many years of experience do you have honing straight razors?

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That question is very disconcerting....lol.

Aren't new DE blades electronically cut and teflon coated? That's a pretty high bar you've got set for yourself. Not to say someone with years of experience couldnt' maybe get close enough for my nerve endings to not tell the difference. But I think maybe your expectations are a bit high my friend.

Why does it dull the edge after honing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Don't use linen after the hone, it'll dull the edge.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Why does it dull the edge after honing?

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I am curious how this is so too, because in my short experience using linen after the hone seems to improve the edge

the two main points I got from reading honing posts are:
- test, test, test (see the wiki or the forum for full explanation about TNT, TPT, MMT, AHT, ....... Test regularly.)
- bevel, bevel, bevel (90% of the honing work is about setting a good, sharp, and even bevel ; after that, 10%, it's only refining the edge without damaging the bevel. Most people focus on the last part because, once your proficient at honing, this is where you have fun and experiment).

Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

...Don't use linen after the hone, it'll dull the edge. ...

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I'm very curious about this too. Any chance you could talk more about this? I tend to pay alot of attention to your posts about stropping - seems an area we haven't recovered as much knowledge as in say honing. 'Loved your thread about over/under stropping.

Quote:

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the two main points I got from reading honing posts are:
- test, test, test (see the wiki or the forum for full explanation about TNT, TPT, MMT, AHT, ....... Test regularly.)
- bevel, bevel, bevel (90% of the honing work is about setting a good, sharp, and even bevel ; after that, 10%, it's only refining the edge without damaging the bevel. Most people focus on the last part because, once your proficient at honing, this is where you have fun and experiment).

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I would add that once the bevel is set, don't use heavy pressure, especially when your just starting out, it will probably mess up the bevel - polishing the edge doesn't require heavy pressure, I tend to let the stone do the work after bevel setting.

regards Alex

Joining in to read AF's reply as I am curious about this as well!

If linen dulls the edge linen strops would be non-existent.

@OP: are you sure you keep the strop taut, do not apply too much pressure on the strop and have the entire blade flat on linen and leather? If not you destroy the edge the stones put on.

With a synthetic edge I could keep razors shaving with leather alone. Linen seems compulsory for coticule edges and jnat edges you can shave right off the hone.

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Originally Posted by Kees

@OP: are you sure you keep the strop taut, do not apply too much pressure on the strop and have the entire blade flat on linen and leather? If not you destroy the edge the stones put on.

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This is my concern, first, although an excellent honing, fresh of the stone is pretty fragile in general too. This is part of why linen isn't recommended in barber's manuals after honing. It's the beginner that I'm mostly concerned with. The linen is the only step in this posters progression that stood out.

The other problem I worry about is that a lot of people use the word " linen " and then when I see the material it's not really linen it's some form of rough canvas. Strops used for roughing are better saved for after the edge has settled a bit (my opinion).

I'm on an IPad now so sometimes I forget to make it clear that the advice I give out only applies to the thread Im on and only to the OP. Linen, by itself and used correctly has a useful purpose.

I have a few Qs:

1) Please describe your facial hair, especially your estimation in comparison to other men.

2) What is your average beard preparation (pre-shave routine) like?

3) Is your Norton Flattening stone itself actually flat?

christophe: I hate all those tests you've referred to, I prefer to use visual analysis (magnification) to understand what is going on and hope the OP is doing well with his 60x, rather than get lost in some tests (which may not be suited for him).

Its not been mentioned yet, but off an 8k you can get a good shave ready razor thats capable of chopping through most beard types. After bevel setting your mostly making it more comfortable by polishing.

I agree with AxelH; too many tests can get in the way... BUT trial and error is the only way to determine what ones are right for you, and you'll need markers to determine where the edge is, whether its feel, acoustic feedback, how easy it cuts armhair(skin level and above skin level)

try dulling the edge on a glass tumbler or something and start again, bevel setting on the 4k will take longer than on a 1k but keep at it until it cuts armhair again.
Make sure it cuts armhair EASILY off the 4k. Some people like to move on as soon as it cuts armhair however it cuts it, I like to get it to cut easily.
Move onto the 8k with little pressure, make sure there's enough pressure to keep the razor's spine and edge on the hone and polish it up to a near mirror or mirror finish - whatever the 8k takes it to - and test shave with it.


I know it sounds a pain starting again but, it might save you hours of polishing a damaged bevel.

good luck

You are using hollow grind blades, and if you are putting any pressure on the blade on the hone, you are never going to get a good shave. Take your second, guiding hand off the razor, and hone with one hand only, using the "flip" you learned for stropping on the hone.

Next, put aside your 4k stone. Get the 8k out - make a slurry, and gradually dilute it over 50 strokes until its just water. When you're on water, do 30 more strokes. AGAIN, everything on the 8k needs to be one hand only. After that, strop 50 times each side on your leather strop. Tight strop, 1/4 pound of pressure, max.

Give it a shot and see how it goes. Oh, also, you should be doing a combination of circles and x strokes. If you're just sliding the razor back and forth on an 8x3 stone because it fits the whole blade, you'll never get an edge thats sharp the whole way down the blade.

If at any time the spine of your razor lifts off the stone, you just ruined your edge. Start over on the 8k.

I suspect your bevels aren't fully set. Magnification with a monoscopic device can be misleading.

If you want, you can send me one of your blades; I'll take a look at it and send it back with some advice based on what I see.

Bravo HNSB. Kudos for helping.

Seeing as how you just joined today? I have to ask what experience you have shaving with a straight razor? Until you have experience shaving with a "Straight razor" you won't know if the trouble you are having is due to the sharpness or your technique. Thats why it is recommended that you have a honemeister hone it before trying to hone it yourself until you have more time on a straight. comparing it to your DE is just not enough. Trust me, been there done that!!!

Enjoy!
Jeff.

I am having a very similar problem. I got a razor back from being professionally sharpened at SRD and thought that I was in for a treat. I stropped it 30 on linen (real linen) and 50 on leather and had an awful shave. I think that if there is anything in the discouraging linen for fresh blades that it really makes sense that I lost my edge before my first shave. In my experience there is a lot that can go wrong with a stropping that will round off, break off, or otherwise just kill the bite that your blade might have. I have been very discouraged but now have become addicted to the idea of straight razors and have about 4 gems that I have collected at low cost and two nice new razors so there is no turning back, yet I struggle because it is so much more comfortable, quick, and effective to just pull out the double edge. Yet I did have a few really good shaves and recently tried one of those drop in replaceable blade straights and it was like magic. So now I have a high standard that I am shooting for and hopefully I will get there before I am too old to be trusted with sharp objects anymore.
Keep tinkering because you know that you can't stop anyways. If you made the commitment in the first place to get a straight then it would eat away at you to walk away now.

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Originally Posted by justalex

Its not been mentioned yet, but off an 8k you can get a good shave ready razor thats capable of chopping through most beard types. After bevel setting your mostly making it more comfortable by polishing.

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I agree, but I note a particular ease my razors have their way with my beard finished off my finisher compared to my Norton 8k (which is officially my pre-finisher unless I start experimenting). This guy's clearly chasing after a DE-type edge. I'm not trying to sell him on the benefits of a smoother, kinder, gentler edge possible from the renewable edge that develops off the strop (and of course the smooth factor attained by the ever-controversial reverse-face-stropping). That's for him to eventually discover and appreciate.

I'm a quarter perfect (need a "Kiss Me, I'm Swedish" button) with those tough blond facial hairs us Scandies are known for and I think I can understand what he's chasing after. I feel very comfortable with Norton 8k but it's the hairs around the lips that make it or break it for me. I want fast, effective and no funny business. Or maybe he's not getting the true Norton 8k experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justalex

I agree with AxelH; too many tests can get in the way... BUT trial and error is the only way to determine what ones are right for you, and you'll need markers to determine where the edge is, whether its feel, acoustic feedback, how easy it cuts armhair(skin level and above skin level)

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Oh, I'm so glad you can agree on that point. Not assuming I'm right or that you're wrong, until we figure out this guy's follicular situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justalex

try dulling the edge on a glass tumbler or something and start again, bevel setting on the 4k will take longer than on a 1k but keep at it until it cuts armhair again.
Make sure it cuts armhair EASILY off the 4k. Some people like to move on as soon as it cuts armhair however it cuts it, I like to get it to cut easily.
Move onto the 8k with little pressure, make sure there's enough pressure to keep the razor's spine and edge on the hone and polish it up to a near mirror or mirror finish - whatever the 8k takes it to - and test shave with it.

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D'oh! Now why did you have to go and do that? We were doing so well. The thing of it is, various body hair tests can be somewhat variable amongst different people, this is one of those groups of tests that I am particularly wary of, magnified of course by the infamous Noob Factor, of course!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justalex

I know it sounds a pain starting again but, it might save you hours of polishing a damaged bevel.

good luck

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bestshave4me

I'm really getting frustrated with my straight razors as i cannot get them sharp enough to perform a easy shave.


Equipment:

Norton 4000/8000 combo
Norton flattening stone
Scruppleworks Stropp with linen and leather side

Razors:
Dovo Bergischer Löewe razor
Puma Gold razor


I have tried and i thought they were sharp enough, but i just cannot get a easy shave with them. my DE razors still feel much sharper

i've tried honing on 4000 / 8000 Norton waterstones and really polish the edge to a mirror finish and it feels sharp

but it just will not shave my beard easely

is it enough to use the norton 8000 as finish ? or should i use paste or other honing equipment as last step pefore stropping to shave ready

this i how i did:

1. Honing on 4000 to set the edge and finish with gentle strockes to polish ( checked the edge with a 60x loupe to ensure even nice edge)
2. Honing on 8000 until mirror finish and eaven edge ( checked the edge with a 60x loupe to ensure even nice edge)
3. Linnen Stropping 50 rounds on my scruppleworks stropp on the linen side
4. Leather Stropping 100 rounds on the scruppleworks leather side
5. Tested Shaving with both the Dovo and the Puma

Result

Dovo feels sharper than Puma but still a bit dull on the cuts of my beard as i need to pull harder than DE razors i use

Puma feels less sharp than the Dovo and had to pull more to get the shave completed, not as comfortable as the Dovo


so i guess they are still not sharp enough

what is the trick and how do i get that super sharp edge, i'm really frustrated that i cannot get the edge as sharp as me DE rasors or sharper

i expected Straight razor shave to be less tough to the skin but i guess i'm not getting the blades sharp enough

Magnus

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I don't think it's realistic to expect a straight razor you're just beginning to learn honing on to have a level of sharpness that rivals modern DE blades.

I'm going to add a +1 to the idea of killing the edge and starting over. I purchased a razor over the weekend that I put to my Norton 4/8, and I did a test with it a few days ago (just shaved the sideburn area before going back to a known good razor). Despite the TPT and TNT, it tugged and pulled like crazy. After reading a thread on here about how bevels can get screwed up and how killing an edge can actually help get the bevel set, I gave it a try. I used that same razor today for my second WTG pass (noob honing + noob shaving technique is asking for trouble, but it worked out this time), and it sailed through the whiskers that were left from the first pass. No tugging or pulling at all. That being said, I'm putting the hones up for a month or two until my technique is a lot more solid.