Switched To Straights. Need Help.

I am about 7 shaves in and they seem to be getting worse. I purchased a whippeddog, shave ready, straight and briefly thought I was making progress until last night. It was probably the worst shave of my life. I feared poor stropping may have rolled the edge, so I used lapping films on a glass plate to bring it back. I am no stranger to knife and tool sharpening, so I am confident that the razor is sharp enough. I understand a straight razor is a different animal, but I can dry shave hair off of my arm, and the blade looks clean and even all the way across, under magnification. It also cleanly cuts the hair off my arm just by passing it a bit over my arm. I then carefully stropped it up and proceeded to knick up my face. Burn was minimal though.


I do a hot towel prep twice with my face lathered (VDH brush and soap), then strop while lathered before first pass. I have a very thick, course beard, but I can take that razor to any other hair on my body, and with just a little soap and water, it takes it off effortlessly to skin level. Is beard hair really different or am I missing something?


I am at the point where the razor feels comfortable in my hands, at least for the first pass WTG on the sides. But I can't get the hair to skin level, even with XTG. I have been concentrating on light pressure, skin stretching, and working on buffing with short strokes, but still no closer with more knicks. It does reduce the beard, but it seems that I would have to do a dozen passes to get it to skin level. I would appreciate any advice. Also, I am grateful that there is such a wonderful resource, like this one, on the subject.


I guess I am wondering if it is normal to get worse before you get better?

Welcome!
First and foremost you will find this the most friendly, informative and helpful site on the Web!!

As a former meat cutter, straight razors and knives are as different as black and white, you really can’t begin to compare how they are sharpened! For example, I start setting a bevel on a 1k Norton, this is a finer grit than the India stone on my Norton Tri-Stone that I finish a knife on!

Back to your shaves, it does indeed sound like you’ve turned the edge. I have my preferences as to my favorite honers (besides myself). If you would pm me, I’ll give some options!

Again, welcome!

Roy

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Originally Posted by AdamN

I guess I am wondering if it is normal to get worse before you get better?

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Yes it is normal.

Congratulations for sticking with it. It just keeps getting better.

Your experience demonstrates the problem with sharpness testing and it also demonstrates how difficult it is to learn honing a razor while learning to shave with one.
Just because it passes some tests doesn't mean it will shave smoothly and since you are adjusting your honing technique while learning to shave it is difficult to establish cause and effect for the inevitable issues which arise. Testing itself degrades the edge.

I too am from a knife background. It helped in some ways but razors have so much more delicate an edge it will take you sometime to adjust your technique of sharpening. Think of the razor edge as steel foil as it is about that delicate. It is likely your stropping is somewhat heavy handed as stropping tends to be more critical than we beginners understand.

The nicks I experienced at first were from pressure. You are wiping away lather not cutting whiskers. If your razor is truly sharp as it should be you will slice your face quite easily with any significant pressure against the skin. Since you have a tough beard the inclination is to attack the whiskers and delicacy can suffer. Your face can suffer too as well you know.

My beginning obstacles stroking the razor were pressure and angle. Pressure got me cut and angle got me burnt.

My obstacles for honing are too diverse and numerous to enumerate in this thread.

All these obstacles can be overcome as you persevere.

For pressure wipe the lather off and the whiskers will come with it. If they don't the razor isn't sharp enough. It shouldn't pull particularly if you are using short strokes.
For angle the razor should be as close to flat as it will cut easily. >30 degrees from the face is commonly thought of as too high an angle. Start flat and lift the spine only to the point the razor wipes off the hair.

Your prep sounds adequate but try performing it just after stepping out of the shower.

Thick beards respond sometimes to being shaved in stages. Beard reduction is the term and it refers to just topping the hair on the first pass then on the second getting against the skin.

It really does just keep getting better.

Thanks, Roy. Are there any visual clues for a turned edge? I use a 60-100x Radio Shack hobby microscope. I guess I would expect to see some sort of wire edge as on other knives, chisels, blades, etc.

One of the differences between knife sharpening and razor sharpening....the visual is a good knife edge indicator but with razors it is only a clue even at very high levels of magnification. Shaving is really the only way to know you have a good edge. You should be able to hone your razor to about 6k or 8k then strop it and shave well. Anything past 8k is more polishing for smoothness of the shave but if the edge isn't right at the lower grits the higher grits won't make it right and your face will tell you. If you are developing shaving technique it is difficult to rely on shaving as a test of your honing.

This is the conundrum which caused me to initially use a shavette. I knew it was sharp enough to be eliminated as a cause of bad results.

If the edge was fine for the first two shaves or so, then felt slightly worse with each shave; I suspect understropping.

If you felt the razor suddenly get worse after a stropping then the edge may be rolled.

Use smooth confident strokes on your strop. Keep shaving but stick to one pass on the easy parts only. Finish with another razor.

Honing is another bag. Use a variety of tests at all stages. Keep strokes light and consistent.

If you want a razor honed free just let me know.

Michael

when stropping..use the weight of the blade ONLY..make sure the edge of the blade makes contact with the strop as well

Thank you all for the advice. I appreciate the info. jaswarb, I especially like the shavette suggestion. Is comparing a shavette shave with a properly "shave ready" straight razor apples to apples? I guess I am asking if I will have to relearn how to use a SR after I am used to the shavette, or will be a smooth transition, applying the same technique?

Hi Adam,

You've gotten some good help so far - I wouln't add much to it. If you'd like a hand w/ your edges, I'll gladly do for just the cost of postage and a bubblepack envelope to get it back to you. New guys need better edges than the experienced guys. I dulled more than my share of edges w/ my stropping, and also made the error of learning to hone while I learned to shave. It did not go well. You'll get there. Let me know if I can help.

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Originally Posted by AdamN

Thank you all for the advice. I appreciate the info. jaswarb, I especially like the shavette suggestion. Is comparing a shavette shave with a properly "shave ready" straight razor apples to apples?

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The differences are minor IMO. The good news is straight razors tend to be more forgiving of bad angle or too much pressure etc. so if you can shave well with at shavette you will likely find it easier to use a true straight.

This is like most of what you are on the path of discovering YMMV and probably will. Jump in and give it all a try. If you work yourself into a corner there is usually an answer somewhere here already posted and there are numerous individuals who are looking for the opportunity to help you along the way.

It just keeps getting better.

I'm very much a noob, but gratifyingly, I've found I'm at a point where (apart from the odd slip and a dash of claret) my shaves seem to be improving.
I had to hone my razor from scratch because it came brand spanking from the factory.
This (embarrassingly) took me a few days of going back and forth between strop and hone.
I guess the only real benefit here (apart from practice) was that I learned what worked for me and what seemed not to.
Basic trial and error really.
For ME, the biggest "eureka" moments came when I...
- learned that I prefer a canvas strop to a leather one
-discovered the "hair" test to determine shave readiness
-learned that lighter is better when stropping (to a point no pun intended)
-learned to make a decent lather
-discovered that while I was learning to sharpen a blade, multiple passes would achieve little other than to leave me looking and no doubt feeling, like Freddy Krueger.
-learned to map (and shave with) the contours of my face in such a way as to remove maximum whisker without abrading (or outrightly slicing) skin.

Don't worry mate, I'm convinced no one learns to be proficient with a straight razor without feeling like they lost a dust up with a cheese grater at least once.