Odd Observation from a Newbie

I just put a post in the “Intro” section, but figured a little background was relevant here to this post.


I have been a DE shaver for a few years, and recently just took the plunge into a straight by ordering one from SRD (haven’t even received it yet) :)


I got interested in DE because I got sick of the cost of cartridges, the razors themselves changing often and the whole process seemed such a waste. When I found out how much better the shave was, it was the right thing to do. It seems only natural that I finally get to a straight razor.


Just getting into this, I have an odd observation (it may be true, or it may be just my current perception) but I would like some feedback from you guys here.


To take my attraction to the DE one step further, the thing that attracts me to the straight razor is not having to rely on a supply chain. Self reliance, doing things yourself. One tool, maintained yourself, capable of serving you for the rest of your life. It will keep working without having to buy things for it, throw things away, and buy more things. I am attracted to simplicity it a lot of different things.


The straight razor seems to be a simple tool that at one point in time probably every man owned. Whether he was darn near poor, or considered wealthy. It just had to be something that was available to the common man and probably almost taken for granted.


The places around me that actually carrying straight razors and supplies are all marketed towards the very wealthy. Extremely expensive stuff. Even though it is obvious that they are overpriced, stuff for using a straight razor is still quite expensive.


I have seen the guides about “buying on a budget” and all that. But, consider this. When you get into something, you would like to think that you could afford the “mid-grade” version of something. If you take a look at Simpson brushes, even a mid-grade brush will cost $150. Sure you can buy the cheapest, and I have beyond the cheapest when it comes to the brush. But, I can’t help but think about what I am missing, and would strive to at least get something mid-grade. Even though I would like one, I couldn’t possibly see my self spending $150 for a brush! My kids don’t want for anything, but if I were to do that, I couldn’t help but look at them and think about there is some way I should have spent the money on them instead :(


I guess my whole point or observation here is this: Does it not seem odd that something that was available to the “common man” now seems only available to those with lots of disposable cash?

On SRP is a Forum called the "Vendor Forum" in there you will find what you seek :)

The Classifieds also hold a ton of deals although Used brushes are not a very popular item like used SR's are

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Originally Posted by OffTheMapKnives

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I guess my whole point or observation here is this: Does it not seem odd that something that was available to the “common man” now seems only available to those with lots of disposable cash?

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It doesn't seem odd to me at all! You are assuming it was available to the common man of yesteryear - moreover, you are also assuming that men of yesteryear didn't have things handed down to them and that they bought everything, or purchased more than one of anything like we do today. Heck they might have even made their own soap.

Considering you read all the "doing it on the cheap" threads - then you know you can get everything you "need" on the cheap. And brother - just like yesteryear, I am positive the common man couldn't get all those mid-priced things they wanted either. So nothing has changed there.

What has changed is that there is considerably less demand for the products today, so the economy's of yesteryear's scale will not be achieved. Hence, things will and should be a little more dear today. The fact that we can even get some of the stuff we want at the prices we get them for is a minor miracle really... read thank goodness for the internet with it's vendors and eBay.

Then to top it all off - once you have two razors, a brush, a hone, and a good strop... all you need is soap. So even if you bought all the most expensive stuff out there - once done, you are set! The rest is well... a form of gluttony.

Starting off straight shaving has a "relatively" steep entry cost for some but again, once you are in... it's cheap!! The fact that we can get the stuff we want today, at prices that are reasonable, is again a testament to the efficiency of the internet.

I may be mistaken, but I think by looking at mid-grade Simpsons, you're looking at upper-mid grade in the grand scheme of things. Kind of like looking at a mid-range Mercedes. As much as I'd love to have a Simpson, one that would improve on my current brushes would be well outside my budget any time soon. There are less expensive but still good quality items out there. You just need to do some hunting. :)

As Glen mentioned, there is the Vendor Forum as well as the classifieds, not to mention other sources for new gear at very good prices. For example I bought my silvertip brush from whippeddog.com for a fraction of the price you would pay for a brand name brush. Same for my Vulfix travel brush. (not the best, not cheap, but good to use and relatively affordable) And I am sure there are plenty of other examples out there too. The expensive ones may well be better - I honestly don't know as I have never used one. But my brushes work well for me and I suspect they are far superior to anything the common man would have had access to 100-150 years ago.

Happy hunting!

I agree with everything you said, and well put. Except for straight razors being expensive to own.
I have never bought a modern straight for my own use and don't intend to. They are just too darn expensive.
Every antique and junk shop has a box full of straights to sift through. Sure, most of them are rusted beyond salvaging or chipped and broken but on occasion you'll find a wonderful near new-old-stock example of the best of a hundred years ago.
I rarely pay more than about $30 or so for my razors. Sure, it takes time to find razors like this, but for me the hunt is lots of fun.
My latest find? A minty JR Torrey 13/16 extreme hollow grind with no hone wear and only light staining (patina, lol) that shaves like a dream.
I bought it for the princely sum of $24.

By the way - are you the guy who makes these knifes?

The Backyard Bushman » Off The Map Custom Knives

David, it's good to see you putting that econ. major to work! :tu

Earcutter nailed it. Those companies who supply new items to a niche market have to charge more than when everyone had to have a straight to shave. Throw in a bit of whatever the market will bear and there you have it.

Bob

I also know there are many of these expensive razors I can't afford and the same thing would happen to me (I have a daughter I want the best for her). My brushes are not expensive but they do the job well. The most expensive ones are two badger brushes made by Edwin Jagger for Crabtree and Evelyn. I got them at $25.00 each because not much people here (Puerto Rico) do classic shaving. I am waiting for a Semogue hog bristle, paid about $20.00. SRP Classifieds and Whipped Dog straights you can get a great deal. I came to this also looking for a simpler way and unless you really are into collecting, it will only be an initial investment. My favorite razor is a 6/8 Torrey, excellent... cost me $53.00. This is really good considering they last a lifetime and the advantages over the plastic and dry foam kind of shaving.

I've found it kinda depends on where you are at as to the local availability of antique/vintage straight razors. I've beaten the bushes pretty hard in SE WA and even during road trips to the Coast and come up with a handful of not very much. But, the Internet is the great equalizer... I've made what I consider a killing on eBay and have done just what you said by buying the gear to hone/maintain my razors. It has turned into a quasi-addiction/Hobby but that was all by choice. And, depending on how you look at it I may still be way ahead. I started shaving my head and not going to the Barber Shop 6 years ago. $8/Shave + $2/Tip was $10 for a Flat Top and I averaged twice a month so that is over $1,400! And, that's not counting the increase in cost for Hair Cuts which I think are now at $10. So, say I splurge and spend a Grand (still ahead over $400) on hones, strops, misc supplies and a BUNCH of vintage razors running $10-$45 ea and occasionally some nicer ones at $60-$80 ea and I use one a week over time to get as much exposure to different manufacturers as possible and to learn how to hone and deal with various blade shapes... Now I've attained a serious level of experience that can help me thin my vintage razors down selling them and likely taking a hit at 75% original cost the majority of the time and maybe breaking even on some others but I still retain the knowledge and experience. I can then utilize that knowledge/experience to fine tune my search and pick out some brand new razors from current manufacturers that will be nearly 'exactly' what I want as I'm making a very educated decision based on all the previous experience and those razors will last easily my lifetime and I can continue to improve my skills and flip vintage razors to fund all my other random shaving gear. As far as Hobbies go, that sounds like a win/win to me. But, that is just one way to do it. This Hobby/activity is as deep and wide as you want to take it. :D Compare that to the eternal cost you mentioned of throw away shaving gear you were previously and the ball just sails out of the park.

I would love to know more about Economics and be able to compare what you say about razors and men years ago as I've wondered the same thing. I read a very interesting book speaking about the myth of the double income for families and it had a much more utilitarian explanation and the comparisons of the economics of the, IIRC, 50's/60's to common times was fascinating. One conclusion the author drew was that in times long past when the Father was the primary wage earner if somehing went wrong or a new large expense came up then the Mother was free to take a part time job thus seriously augmenting their family income. Whereas today's incomes that are dual based are spending based on two people working and if the same money issue arises in those circumstances then there is no lateral move to make. I suspect with razors it was much the same thing.... There was a very down to earth and pragmatic way it was handled and most likely that was hand me downs kind of like your Father or Grandfather giving you their 'old' but your 'first' pocket knife. It could have also been an extremely popular wedding gift... The 'Crockpot' of the day where each Married Man was expected to have a nice razor so that family/friends went in together on something like that which was utilized until his Son needed a razor and by that time he had saved enough money to buy a new/different one. I would love to know more about how turn of the century economics/income/expenses compared to today.

I also had your similar interest in brushes and this is how I addressed that:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...e-brushes.html

I am still using the E&J and Parker leaning heavily toward a love affair with my $59 Parker Silvertip!

You are in the right place to find anything and everything at any and all price points... Just have to start looking and wait until you find your mark! But, be careful... Likely not to be your 'last' one. ;-)

Just to put things into perspective - my first products:

Razor - vintage Dubl Duck, $90 (could have got something cheaper, but what the hell)
Strop - Tony Miller, $75 (again, could have got something cheaper, but it was a TM for a good price)
Brush - Vulfix pure badger, $35, and a great brush to boot
Soap - Proraso Green, $9
Lather bowl - $2, from Army & Navy
A/S - Nivea, $10
Styptic pencil - $2

For the princely sum of $223 I had a full set up. Not including the future costs of soap and aftershave (plus a barbers hone for perhaps $20) I would have been more or less set for life. Of course it goes without saying that it would be easy to spend a lot more or a lot less than that for a starter kit. That's the beauty of this hobby, and the point that I think you have missed: it is what you make of it.

I can totally understand the perception that this is a hobby for people with loads of money they don't know what to do with and I suppose if that's you, there is certainly no shortage of $1000 razors or $300 brushes. However, I'm living proof that you can enjoy it just as much if you're the average Joe, poor college student, guy on a budget or whatever. Flea markets and antique stores have provided all of my razors (DE, SE and Straight). I've found some real treasures (i.e. 1960 Gillette Fatboy for $4, C.V. Heljestrand Mk4 for $8, etc.) The most expensive of my 25+ razors is the first straight I ever bought (a $30 Boker Red Injun) unit price on most of the others is somewhere between $8 and $10. It has been my experience that most Flea Market venders are NOT straight razor people and are merely hoping to make a few bucks off these trinkets (after all no one actually shaves with these anymore.) Assuming a razor is structurally sound, not badly rusted without serious hone wear or a ghastly smile or frown, it can generally clean up and hone up nicely and be a prince of a shave on a pauper's budget.

My hone would never pass muster amongst purists, when I started a few years back I just picked up something that would hold me over until I could afford a 4K/8K. It has done just fine at both restoring flea market finds and maintaining keen edges on my daily shavers. I probably could and should have long ago purchased a 4K/8K but to be honest, I couldn't justify spending the money because what I have works just fine for everything I need it to do. Total outlay for my two strops is $32, most recently (last weekend in fact) I purchased a Russian Shell/ Canvas strop for $12. Cleaned it up and it works like a champ.

My brushes are all about 4 years old and to be sure that fleet is due for a bit of an upgrade. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Badgers?...Badgers!? We don't need no steenking badgers." My "high end brushes" are a pair of Semogues that I think I may have spent $20 a piece on. Semogues are great brushes to be sure, as are Omega brushes. I don't own a fancy brush but for sure they all consistently do the job. Lately I've been stalking the Vie Long horse hair brushes. Very nice ones are available for less than $25. Eventually, I'll replace my aging brush fleet but I'm in no hurry. The key to it all is to keep your eyes peeled for affordable gear with good quality. It's very possible but may not happen over night.

I understand where the OP is coming from. I'm new to this hobby and I got into it just to get a basic shave and to have a little more fun with it than shaving with either a cartridge or an electric.

I'm still working on getting my $12 Gold Dollar sharp but it's cheap, basic paddle strops are cheap and a brush, cup with soap at a local drugstore is $12.

You can hone with micro film for $15. It's all very basic but when done this way it's as cheap as it ever was.

I haven't been into this hobby long enough to want to do any more than just get a simple shave to be able to hone my razor myself.

Most of the expense is like with any other activity moving from the basic needs to something more.

Ok this is kind of interesting. This add is supposed to be from 1918:

Attachment 111031

Ok so the mean price of a straight razor from the selection offered is approximately $37.00.

A 1918 dollar is worth about $16.47 in today's dollars. DollarTimes.com | Inflation Calculator

That would mean that a $37.00 razor in 1918 would be about $609.00!!

What the heck!! What am I doing wrong? Or do we really have it that good today??!!! Anyone have a verified ad with a price for a straight from 1740 to 1900?

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Ok this is kind of interesting. This add is supposed to be from 1918:

Attachment 111031

Ok so the mean price of a straight razor from the selection offered is approximately $37.00.

A 1918 dollar is worth about $16.47 in today's dollars. DollarTimes.com | Inflation Calculator

That would mean that a $37.00 razor in 1918 would be about $609.00!!

What the heck!! What am I doing wrong? Or do we really have it that good today??!!! Anyone have a verified ad with a price for a straight from 1740 to 1900?

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Er... prices per dozen?

:)

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

Er... prices per dozen?

:)

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Right On!! Thanks Cangooner I didn't see that! I knew something was wrong! So do you think this ad was wholesale prices? If you divide it by 12 it's only about $51.00! Not too bad.

I guess one thing I'm curious about...did everyone own straights back in the day? I was under the impression a lot of guys just went to the barber once or twice a week for a shave...but I could be very wrong...

I have a similar ad from some time around 1890 (I think - there's no date but it's post-1882 (de Pews patent date) and pre-1891) that has prices per dozen ranging from $8.00 (Wade & Butcher medium hollow ground 'round point' which is what we'd call a barber's notch) to $17.00 (Wade & Butcher special hollow ground with 'carved rubber handle', also with round point aka barber's notch). incidentally a dozen De Pews would set you back $16.00. Not bad!

Using a different calculator that goes back a bit farther into the 19th century, I came up with equivalents of $16.43 for the cheapest W&B, $32.86 for the De Pew, and $34.91 for the pricey W&Bs.

Wow, that is and interesting comparison... So, that would mean a brand new production razor for around $50?! What would be some contemporary examples of brand new for around $50? I've seen vintage NOS around that price but don't have good examples of any others. Seems like a closer average may be 3 times higher than that for brand new. ??

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Originally Posted by Prahston

Wow, that is and interesting comparison... So, that would mean a brand new production razor for around $50?! What would be some contemporary examples of brand new for around $50? I've seen vintage NOS around that price but don't have good examples of any others. Seems like a closer average may be 3 times higher than that for brand new. ??

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You can get serviceable new razors for under $100 (I'm thinking base model Dovo here). But that's really the bottom of the range before you start getting into garbage (or at least inconsistent) blades. I do wish I could get a NOS De Pew for $32 though!! :)

Either way, with our monetary debasement the trend still holds...buy more razors before we're even more inflated!
Attachment 111032

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ryanjewell

I guess one thing I'm curious about...did everyone own straights back in the day? I was under the impression a lot of guys just went to the barber once or twice a week for a shave...but I could be very wrong...

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That's something I was lead to believe myself.

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

I have a similar ad from some time around 1890 (I think - there's no date but it's post-1882 (de Pews patent date) and pre-1891) that has prices per dozen ranging from $8.00 (Wade & Butcher medium hollow ground 'round point' which is what we'd call a barber's notch) to $17.00 (Wade & Butcher special hollow ground with 'carved rubber handle', also with round point aka barber's notch). incidentally a dozen De Pews would set you back $16.00. Not bad!

Using a different calculator that goes back a bit farther into the 19th century, I came up with equivalents of $16.43 for the cheapest W&B, $32.86 for the De Pew, and $34.91 for the pricey W&Bs.

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That's not bad at all! But according to this http://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/1918-19.pdf - the average Joe made .50 an hour. So a W&B was still over a weeks pay...

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Originally Posted by AspiringPolymath

Either way, with our monetary debasement the trend still holds...buy more razors before we're even more inflated!

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Bahhaaha - you must work for the man! Buy, buy, buy lol!!

But you are right. Well, that's how I sold my wife on our needing a new car anyway lol!!

I don't think I could bring myself to work for the man - no offense to anyone who does! Just another one of those real asset nuts...we have to protect our purchasing power.

Gotta love the BLS: it's where I got the data for my excel chart :beer1:

:beer1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AspiringPolymath

I don't think I could bring myself to work for the man - no offense to anyone who does! Just another one of those real asset nuts...we have to protect our purchasing power.

Gotta love the BLS: it's where I got the data for my excel chart :beer1:

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Yup lol - :beer1: -> :beer2: -> :p

Man, what was it in the early 70's that started that steep 45° climb?! Was that the beginning of gas shortage/rations? I thought that was more mid 70's. That is one monstrous leap in just 40 some years!

Myriad factors including, but not limited to, skyrocketing oil costs, currency speculation, and extremely loose monetary policy (basically US trying to finance the Vietnam war, reduce unemployment, increase social welfare outlays, etc.--sounds familiar, no?). I'd expound but I don't want to hijack the tread :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

You can get serviceable new razors for under $100 (I'm thinking base model Dovo here)

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Or 60$ for a giesen & forsthoff. Both entry level, both good shavers.
20$ for a simple strop, 10$ for a good brush, that's all you need for good shaves.

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Originally Posted by Prahston

Man, what was it in the early 70's that started that steep 45° climb?! Was that the beginning of gas shortage/rations? I thought that was more mid 70's. That is one monstrous leap in just 40 some years!

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That was when we came off the gold standard. Back then we always backed the dollar with an equal amount of gold. Nixon took us off the gold standard and we've been paying for it ever since then. Our current gasprices are more of a reflection of our devalued paper currency than any meaningless accusations towards the evil oil companies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earcutter

By the way - are you the guy who makes these knifes?

The Backyard Bushman » Off The Map Custom Knives

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Yes, that is me :)

I tried to register under my real name, but apparently I have the same name as too many other people :) My name and other abbreviations were all taken.

Brian

The US is not alone, there are virtually no world currencies backed by gold left. Inflation could also be worse Zimbabwean dollar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Bob

Thanks all for your replies to this thread. Great stuff to think about, and all really good stuff! Thank you!!!

It wasn't abandoning the gold standard that caused inflation, per se, so much as that allowed for rampant, un-financed spending.

Under the Bretton-Woods, the dollar was fixed to a certain quantity of gold/$. When we abandoned BW, we essentially had the ability to fire up the printing presses because we didn't need to assure the world there was a commensurate increase in our gold stock (real assets represented by those greenbacks).

Aside from the notable example of Zimbabwe, the German Deutschmark in the Weimar period (eventually necessitating the introduction of the Rentenmark) experienced hyperinflation for a number of years as a result of WWI debts and reparations. Similar situations also occurred in Brazil and Hungary.

(Ok, I hijacked the thread again - but only because it looked like the OP concluded his discussion ;) )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OffTheMapKnives

I just put a post in the “Intro” section, but figured a little background was relevant here to this post.


I have been a DE shaver for a few years, and recently just took the plunge into a straight by ordering one from SRD (haven’t even received it yet) :)


I got interested in DE because I got sick of the cost of cartridges, the razors themselves changing often and the whole process seemed such a waste. When I found out how much better the shave was, it was the right thing to do. It seems only natural that I finally get to a straight razor.


Just getting into this, I have an odd observation (it may be true, or it may be just my current perception) but I would like some feedback from you guys here.


To take my attraction to the DE one step further, the thing that attracts me to the straight razor is not having to rely on a supply chain. Self reliance, doing things yourself. One tool, maintained yourself, capable of serving you for the rest of your life. It will keep working without having to buy things for it, throw things away, and buy more things. I am attracted to simplicity it a lot of different things.


The straight razor seems to be a simple tool that at one point in time probably every man owned. Whether he was darn near poor, or considered wealthy. It just had to be something that was available to the common man and probably almost taken for granted.


The places around me that actually carrying straight razors and supplies are all marketed towards the very wealthy. Extremely expensive stuff. Even though it is obvious that they are overpriced, stuff for using a straight razor is still quite expensive.


I have seen the guides about “buying on a budget” and all that. But, consider this. When you get into something, you would like to think that you could afford the “mid-grade” version of something. If you take a look at Simpson brushes, even a mid-grade brush will cost $150. Sure you can buy the cheapest, and I have beyond the cheapest when it comes to the brush. But, I can’t help but think about what I am missing, and would strive to at least get something mid-grade. Even though I would like one, I couldn’t possibly see my self spending $150 for a brush! My kids don’t want for anything, but if I were to do that, I couldn’t help but look at them and think about there is some way I should have spent the money on them instead :(


I guess my whole point or observation here is this: Does it not seem odd that something that was available to the “common man” now seems only available to those with lots of disposable cash?

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During the heyday of straight razors, we were a rural, agrarian nation (speaking of the U.S.). Most people didn't have daily access to a store, so businesses made their reputation by building things that lasted. Same with children. Children were an economic asset to a family because they contributed their labor growing up.

With the majority of people now living in cities, there are more businesses that cater to the needs of people. In order for the economy to support all this business activity, the business depends on repeat business in order to sustain itself. A razor company couldn't make it on selling someone a straight, strop, and hone that lasted for years. So they came up with razors that needed disposable blades. Same with children. They are required to go to school, which means they contribute to the cost and not the revenue of households. That's why families are generally smaller. To give you an extreme example, my grandmother was one of 14 kids growing up. She had two kids (including my mother). Those two kids had one child each. I don't have any children.

Taken one step farther, after World War II ended in 1945 there were two superpowers, the US and Russia. 25 years later, the countries that were defeated in the war were rebuilt and we became a global economy, resulting in more, cutthroat competition to stay employed and stay in business. It wasn't enough for Gillette and Personna (formerly Gem and Everready) to sell you blades. They needed to sell you disposable razors and accessories to sustain themselves. Third World companies can't afford these things and some of the older shaving methods are still provided, but you can bet these businesses are going to push the newer stuff on them as soon as they are able.

As for you and economics, there are ways to get around the expense of straight razors and accessories. In our Classified section, there are outstanding refurbished razors and accessories for sale from trusted fellow members. Most of them don't depend on this income for a living, they do it as a pastime. If you buy the World of Straight Razor Shaving DVD, you can save money learning to do the upkeep of the razor yourself. This is not on the video, but I have learned to drill out the knots on old brushes and get a first class replacement knot for $20 to glue in. However if you do decide to buy the new stuff, there are reputable dealers who can provide these things and make a living because there are relatively few still offering these things.

Shifts in lifestyles and the marketplace created the paradox you cite. In a sense, we who favor the retro shaving equipment aren't the "common man" in the strictest sense of the word. The "common man" uses the stuff you find on the shelf at huge department store and drug store chains. Take comfort in knowing you and I are in a better place shaving-wise!

Attachment 111051

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Originally Posted by AspiringPolymath

It wasn't abandoning the gold standard that caused inflation, per se, so much as that allowed for rampant, un-financed spending.

Under the Bretton-Woods, the dollar was fixed to a certain quantity of gold/$. When we abandoned BW, we essentially had the ability to fire up the printing presses because we didn't need to assure the world there was a commensurate increase in our gold stock (real assets represented by those greenbacks).

Aside from the notable example of Zimbabwe, the German Deutschmark in the Weimar period (eventually necessitating the introduction of the Rentenmark) experienced hyperinflation for a number of years as a result of WWI debts and reparations. Similar situations also occurred in Brazil and Hungary.

(Ok, I hijacked the thread again - but only because it looked like the OP concluded his discussion ;) )

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I was working on a cup of coffee and not to inclined to get this deep into it. Thanks for going there for me.

No problem :) I'm working on my coffee now. I accidentally woke up too early thinking fall back was today...haha

I inherited three razors and a strop from my grandfathers estate. There is something to be said that these blades last several lifetimes.