Throw those crutches away

I had a lesson in stark reality with this mornings shave. I did no prep, used cold tap water and for soap Williams shave stick which is a soap quite a few would call marginal. The razor was a Tuckmar wedge and the brush a Semogue 1350 boar. The result was a BBS shave.

The lesson I took away was that technique trumps almost everything else. You don't need hot water or a scuttle. You don't need an expensive brush or expensive soap. You don't need an expensive razor. What you do need is a sharp well stropped razor that you get from good technique. You need good technique with a brush to be able to get a decent lather from a soap. You need good technique with the blade when shaving. Don't get too side tracked by all the nice to have extras. They do make it easier and more enjoyable to shave but may also let you get away with a less good technique.

Yea, it was an eye opener and no my technique is certainly not perfect. I just wanted to underscore how much more important developing good technique is than those nice to have crutches. As a beginner I think I needed that reality check.

Bob

When I first tried Williams... and yes it was not my first soap, I found that my technique with the razor drastically increased out of necessity. I did not have a lot of cushion anymore and I had to correct some things but the outcome was better technique and better shaves.

No scuttle,no fancy brush,use cheap palmolive tallow shaving soap.
But these old bones draw the line at using cold water,not me man:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

No scuttle,no fancy brush,use cheap palmolive tallow shaving soap.
But these old bones draw the line at using cold water,not me man:)

---

Once you go cold it will never get old ! :rofl2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

No scuttle,no fancy brush,use cheap palmolive tallow shaving soap.
But these old bones draw the line at using cold water,not me man:)

---

That's cheating, I hear Palmolive stick is a pretty good soap. ;) Yea, cold water will wake you up for sure.

Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

That's cheating, I hear Palmolive stick is a pretty good soap. ;) Yea, cold water will wake you up for sure.

Bob

---

Euro palmolive Gut is one of the greatest shaving soaps around IMO,and it is real cheap:)

I agree that technique trumps toys but all of the extras (scuttle, good soap/cream, etc) do a lot to make the experience a pleasurable one, at least for me.

I will have to agree that technique is far more important than fancy shaving gear in getting a good shave.
For a really nice shave it is important to have straight, cheap or costly, that is sharp and a smooth cutter.
I like to think about the clean faced old timers and what they had to work with. Technique was about the only thing that many of them could afford to perfect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weaselsrippedmyflesh

I agree that technique trumps toys but all of the extras (scuttle, good soap/cream, etc) do a lot to make the experience a pleasurable one, at least for me.

---

Yea, wouldn't argue that one bit and didn't. I would say though if you want to check your progress in shaving just take those luxuries away once and awhile. Don't get carried away with the toys initially, plenty of time for that later when you have a grip on technique.

Bob

Good point, I apply the same method to shaving that I do to golf, it's not the clubs that make the golfer. I started purposefully with a cheap, but good, tweezerman brush, VDH cheap soap, I read if you can make a great lather on it you can lather anything, and a SR I restored. I set out to make shaving great with the basics so if I ever went up it was the technique not the technology(not that there is much tech in shaving but you get the point:p)

Back to Basics. Isn't that what all are trying for, back to the good old ways. After buying shaving stuff that now sits in a drawer. I have it down to a George Wostenholm & Sons Sheffield 5/8 blade that I got for $18, Arko shaving stick, Omega boar hair brush and a good 3" wide strop. I'm getting the best shaves ever, and look forward to shaving every morning with cold water.
I do have a Norton 4k/8k and a DMT Course.

The very first time I shaved I had not read very much on here about the proper way to shave. I got a Dovo off of Amazon not knowing anything about it, luckily I chose a good brand because I almost bought a Krieger or something of the like. It did not even come professionally honed, but it did come very sharp. Before I shaved all I did was splash water on my face and rub the brush on the soap just enough to wet it and get suds, not a lather in any way shape or form, just wet soap. I went and shaved my whole face. Surprisingly it went very well. I only had a couple of small nice and got as close as I had with my cartridge razor. Looking back I was so focused on technique and not cutting myself that I went very slow and tried several different angles until I got it right. After reading this board, now I know how to properly prepare my face and lather and it makes a world of difference. That being said a good shave is possible without doing the whole routine as long as you take your time and develop your technique.

;)

I need whatever makes me happy, feel good, when I shave. :shrug:
I need my preshave, hot towel, expensive cream, T & I badger brush & my Max Sprecher razor.
I could care less if my shave is just O.K. or BBS.
I enjoy the ride more than the destination. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

;)

I need whatever makes me happy, feel good, when I shave. :shrug:
I need my preshave, hot towel, expensive cream, T & I badger brush & my Max Spreacher razor.
I could care less if my shave is just O.K. or BBS.
I enjoy the ride more than the destination. ;)

---

I hear you Hirlau, and as much as I like the accoutrements, I'm one that sees the trip as an impediment to the destination. Are we there yet??? :D

I agree with you Hirlau. 90% of it is ritual. On the other hand the ritual usually leads to a great shave. The whole process is my meditation and me time!

I think he is right. I am going to toss out the washer and dryer too, go down to the creek and smack my Levi's against the rocks to get em clean. Well maybe not, but, even if I was back in that day I would heat a pot over a fire to shave with. Just the splash of cold water on my face anytime of day makes my whiskers shrink back into my skin and no need to shave then. I see what your saying about technique but I don't need to suffer to learn and won't if I don't have too.

I have tried just about every combination, hot water,luke warm water, cold water, shave cream,shave soap,bodywash,lifeboy hand soap, shave oil prep,shave oil and nothing else, no soap, just water, and when I was in the gulf war I used coffee out of my steel pot, ( my field helmet). Some people can get away with it and like me I have to exfoliate my skin every shave, dig out all the ingrown hairs, lube my skill with some good soap or cream and always shave with,against,and across the grain. the sum of all things we are not all the same, skin problems,whisker problems,shaving technique etc...
If you can get away with it God Bless you and if you face is like me I have to baby it,ha ha ha!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 10Pups

I think he is right. I am going to toss out the washer and dryer too, go down to the creek and smack my Levi's against the rocks to get em clean. Well maybe not, but, even if I was back in that day I would heat a pot over a fire to shave with. Just the splash of cold water on my face anytime of day makes my whiskers shrink back into my skin and no need to shave then. I see what your saying about technique but I don't need to suffer to learn and won't if I don't have too.

---

For Pete sake I am not suggesting anything of that kind. I am suggesting that you may when you start off straight shaving You can make it so complex and over think things that you may not concentrate on technique and in some cases they may even hide a flaw or two. Me I won't give up my little luxuries either. I am also not suggesting that if you have a medical condition that effects your skin that you ignore that either.

Bob

I shave with cold water fairly often. Sometimes just use some shampoo for my lather. If it's smooth, I can get a good shave from it using my Feather AC. I don't really love the whole brush/scuttle ritual, and find it pretty superfluous. Even when I use shaving soap, I sometimes like to work it in with my hands and skip the brush stuff.

I've done a shave with straight oil, but didn't like the way the hair stuck to the razor. I've tried full-dry or water-only and my beard is a bit too coarse to be easily mowed down even with the Feather Pro Supers, but it can be done. I apply petroleum jelly with water to my face afterward to prevent dryout.

Yes, the YMMV cliche is applied liberally to most method posts, but consider how many new users are being brought into the hobby under the impression that there's a genuinely correct way of doing it. How many new users have been convinced to get a brush and scuttle and aftershave and all the extras before they even try a straight or DE shave? I bet quite a large fraction of them. We can beat people with "do what works for you" all the time but it sounds bromidic when virtually all the SOTD posts and other content in the community embraces orthodoxy or some variation thereof. As a result, I like seeing posts where people experiment a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobH

For Pete sake I am not suggesting anything of that kind. I am suggesting that you may when you start off straight shaving You can make it so complex and over think things that you may not concentrate on technique and in some cases they may even hide a flaw or two. Me I won't give up my little luxuries either. I am also not suggesting that if you have a medical condition that effects your skin that you ignore that either.

Bob

---

""""" I see what your saying about technique """""" <<<< that was in my post . :<0)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tierdaen

I shave with cold water fairly often. Sometimes just use some shampoo for my lather. If it's smooth, I can get a good shave from it using my Feather AC. I don't really love the whole brush/scuttle ritual, and find it pretty superfluous. Even when I use shaving soap, I sometimes like to work it in with my hands and skip the brush stuff.

I've done a shave with straight oil, but didn't like the way the hair stuck to the razor. I've tried full-dry or water-only and my beard is a bit too coarse to be easily mowed down even with the Feather Pro Supers, but it can be done. I apply petroleum jelly with water to my face afterward to prevent dryout.

Yes, the YMMV cliche is applied liberally to most method posts, but consider how many new users are being brought into the hobby under the impression that there's a genuinely correct way of doing it. How many new users have been convinced to get a brush and scuttle and aftershave and all the extras before they even try a straight or DE shave? I bet quite a large fraction of them. We can beat people with "do what works for you" all the time but it sounds bromidic when virtually all the SOTD posts and other content in the community embraces orthodoxy or some variation thereof. As a result, I like seeing posts where people experiment a bit.

---

I hope that I'm understanding your statement; just spent the last five, looking up the definitions of "orthodoxy" & "bromidic". :hmmm:

One quick question first, to help me, "If a community embraces orthodoxy, will that same community allow a variation to co-exist exist with that orthodoxy? " :shrug:

I understand Bob's post & agree with him; I just wanted to play with the new guys a little.

Tierdaen,
I do believe there is a correct way, method, procedure to bring new guys into the wet shaving arena. I feel that the first experiences with wet shaving are the most important. A lot of the luxuries(equipment) that we use do compensate for lack of skill, as Bob stated. I think that strongly suggesting a routine that includes equipment, that is not vital to removing hair from the face benefits the new shaver , as it gives him a better first shave experience. I dare say that if we stripped new guys of the luxuries, then many of us would not be here today.
I have not noticed, and I'm there a lot, a routine that rises to the level of "orthodoxy", in the SOTD thread. I've seen posts of the bare minimum required to shave & many that I envied their luxuries.

Also Tierdaen, many members here have businesses attached to the wet shaving experience. I'm glad that many guys want to purchase luxuries suggested by "time tested" routines. This allows the member/vendors to stock these luxuries for all of us to use.

I've never seen a thread that forces the purchase or use of only popular equipment/luxuries.

Yes, there is preferred a path to travel down the wet shaving path; a path with many stops along the way & yes, YMMV when you check the odometer at the end.

Well.it is 28 degs outside (for kali,that is real cold) I have been in my shop for 14 hrs, standing on a cold concreat floor,I am frizzed to the bone.
I am going to have a hot bowl of home made Borscht,some home brew Kimchee,some warm homemade sourdough bread.
Than I will go shower and shave,cold water is not in the equation,never will be for me:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Well.it is 28 degs outside (for kali,that is real cold) I have been in my shop for 14 hrs, standing on a cold concreat floor,I am frizzed to the bone.
I am going to have a hot bowl of home made Borscht,some home brew Kimchee,some warm homemade sourdough bread.
Than I will go shower and shave,cold water is not in the equation,never will be for me:)

---

With that Kimchee it'll be plenty hot by the time you get done with it :D

I have arrived at a similar point when it comes to my shaves, in that I keep it simple before it gets stupid. I keep it cold. I skip a scuttle and face lather from the brush. And even if I had irritation I wouldn't know for a while, from all the ice I pack on my face. Bob is absolutely correct, technique and equipment are paramount.

I've always said the razor and your skill is what's really important. Everything else ranges from enjoyment factors and window dressing to partial improvements in the shave. If your razor is dull and/or your skills are dull the most expensive soap and pre and post shaves and fancy routines won't make a lick of difference. If your razor and skills are up to snuff you can shave with just cold water and still get a great comfortable shave.

I have said this in other threads, but it feels appropriate to say it again here. YMMV is not a cop out. To not use it is a huge presumption that your shaving situation is not unique and can be used as generally sound advice. I don't think that is ever true. Your face, skin, razors, blades, prep and post are always unique. Any advice to new wet shavers should encourage certain basics (no pressure on the razor, try to moisten your beard, etc.) but everything beyond that is an expression of what you enjoy or works for you. That's fine as long as it is understood.

I have been wet shaving with DEs for sometime and have put together what gives me a great shave/experience. If I listed every step and asked who does it my way with my choice of equipment, I would be surprised if one person agreed with it. I understand when I read reviews or posts about great shaves someone has had, that this may not (probably won't) work for me.

I don't deny the importance of skill and equipment, but if the face and skin of the individual won't allow a close shave without irritation, the rest won't matter. My face is not smooth, I have a tremor in my left hand and my beard is very tough. I have tried and continue to search for a product or technique that will soften my beard at all (yes, I hot shower before I shave). I can get anywhere from 0 to 1 comfortable shave from most DE blades. I use Feather blades almost exclusively, not because I want to, but because I have to (this is not a gripe about Feather, but a fact of my limited choices). I have not yet found a straight that will cut my beard smoothly. This includes SRD pre-honed razors out of the box (yes, tried all angles from flat to 40 degrees with no luck). I still enjoy shaving with a straight, but I always have to clean up with a DE. Yes, my technique is constantly getting better and so are the shaves (little irritation and cuts are rare), but I have to constantly struggle to get any of my razors (I have 5 and they'er all fine razors) to cut with the ease of a DE blade.

Everyone will have to figure out what works best for them so they can get the best shave possible for their situation. It's interesting to read about a shaver who just dry shaved themselves with a scout knife for a BBS shave, but I don't think there are a lot of conclusions to be drawn from it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by matloffm

I have said this in other threads, but it feels appropriate to say it again here. YMMV is not a cop out. To not use it is a huge presumption that your shaving situation is not unique and can be used as generally sound advice. I don't think that is ever true. Your face, skin, razors, blades, prep and post are always unique. Any advice to new wet shavers should encourage certain basics (no pressure on the razor, try to moisten your beard, etc.) but everything beyond that is an expression of what you enjoy or works for you. That's fine as long as it is understood.

I have been wet shaving with DEs for sometime and have put together what gives me a great shave/experience. If I listed every step and asked who does it my way with my choice of equipment, I would be surprised if one person agreed with it. I understand when I read reviews or posts about great shaves someone has had, that this may not (probably won't) work for me.

I don't deny the importance of skill and equipment, but if the face and skin of the individual won't allow a close shave without irritation, the rest won't matter. My face is not smooth, I have a tremor in my left hand and my beard is very tough. I have tried and continue to search for a product or technique that will soften my beard at all (yes, I hot shower before I shave). I can get anywhere from 0 to 1 comfortable shave from most DE blades. I use Feather blades almost exclusively, not because I want to, but because I have to (this is not a gripe about Feather, but a fact of my limited choices). I have not yet found a straight that will cut my beard smoothly. This includes SRD pre-honed razors out of the box (yes, tried all angles from flat to 40 degrees with no luck). I still enjoy shaving with a straight, but I always have to clean up with a DE. Yes, my technique is constantly getting better and so are the shaves (little irritation and cuts are rare), but I have to constantly struggle to get any of my razors (I have 5 and they'er all fine razors) to cut with the ease of a DE blade.

Everyone will have to figure out what works best for them so they can get the best shave possible for their situation. It's interesting to read about a shaver who just dry shaved themselves with a scout knife for a BBS shave, but I don't think there are a lot of conclusions to be drawn from it.

---

You need a tad more experiance my friend,JMO

I've heard it said quite a few times that you'll get superior shaves from a straight compared to cartridge razors and the like. I've then seen a lot of people frustrated with their straight razor shaves get blamed for their own dissatisfaction. It's usually just then that the YMMV platitudes come around to convince that it's all about experience and that dedication to mastery is the only sure way to satisfaction. That is assuming there's not a rush to push products at the novice.

I don't disagree with the truth behind some of those platitudes, but their timing (after getting hooked) certainly can be discouraging for people who have grown disillusioned with traps that work the same way in politics, business, and religion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tierdaen

I've heard it said quite a few times that you'll get superior shaves from a straight compared to cartridge razors and the like. I've then seen a lot of people frustrated with their straight razor shaves get blamed for their own dissatisfaction. It's usually just then that the YMMV platitudes come around to convince that it's all about experience and that dedication to mastery is the only sure way to satisfaction. That is assuming there's not a rush to push products at the novice.

I don't disagree with the truth behind some of those platitudes, but their timing (after getting hooked) certainly can be discouraging for people who have grown disillusioned with traps that work the same way in politics, business, and religion.

---

Here's a confession for you;
I've been straight shaving for 2 years, only started because I wanted to shave with my grandfather's razor, handed down to me from the 1830's. The first month sucked as far as a close shave. I kept with it, trying many things that would get me to the close shave & justify my effort in this new arena.
I have reached a level with straights that give me a nice, comfortable shave. I don't know what BBS is, I don't believe. I jumped into DE razors about 6 months ago, with a gift from ZeroCool, a 1956 Gillette DE. I split my week with DE shaves & Straight shaves. I have yet to have a straight razor shave that beats my Gillette gift. My straights are close, but not better. That does not discourage me from straights, it only tells me that I have a lot to learn when it comes to straight razor shaving.

The biggest benefit that I have been given from straight razor shaving, is that at age 51, I look forward to shaving. Most of my life, shaving was a necessary PITA.

There are no traps here, if you feel disillusioned, take a step back & look over what's crowding you & causing the frustration. Focus on a single distant goal, then the path clears an opening for you.
I may sound like a nut, but I get disillusioned when I take on more than I should, then I step back focus & remove the obstacles one at a time.

You will do fine, stay in the game, it's really a fun one. :shrug:

I don't have any particular difficulty with shaving, and can get by with pretty much anything. I have no special love or hate for straight razors, and I just picked up several nice razors that I plan to use. I am simply critical of the way new members are often "converted". That you came to straights via another path is great; but there are plenty of folks who have been convinced by enthusiastic but perhaps ignorant or naive enablers. I came back to straight shaving because of nostalgia and an attraction to long-term tools, as well as a love of steel and craftsmanship. I never had to deal with the disenchantment some users who are lured in have to deal with. It happens quite often to others though. It's one of those issues that pervades most enthusiast communities.

Tierdaen,
I sense anger in your posts, which to me sounds like you have had bad dealings with people in the shaving communities? If this is so, then be more specific & maybe it will help others.

I think it would be pretty hard to "convert" , a term you used, a new shaver to drop his disposables & place a straight to his face. This is a jump that a person has to want to try.

I'm sure bungee jumping is a serious rush also, but I'll be da*ned if anybody could convert/convince me to do it.

I guess, in my post above, my point was unclear. I think practice is the discipline required to become competent with any tool. It is also important that the tool be in condition to do what it was designed to do. My point is that there is an underlying assumption in the standard advice that given practice and a good tool, you will eventually get the best shave for your face and skin. I don't agree with this point of view. You will get better and better at using the tool, but it is possible that another tool would give better results or you may not have the coordination to get all the angles necessary or the honing skills to keep your razor in top condition. To my mind, it is like saying that if you buy great quality golf clubs and practice a lot you will become a par golfer or better. If that were the case, there would be many more competitive golfers than there are. We are all unique with different skill sets and temperaments (and budgets). Why should these not be acknowledged when discussing straight razor shaving. One size fits all advice will not always help the new shaver. IMO

It just takes time is all,no blade, soap,brush, strop is going to create shaving nervana.
As far as golf,I can play to par on any course with any clubs, anywhere in the world.
Been doing it for yrs.
Played a 72 yesterday,when I hit 72 I quit,might be six holes,on a good day maybe 10 or 12.Head on in to the clubhouse and bitch about just getting around with par score:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

It just takes time is all,no blade, soap,brush, strop is going to create shaving nervana.
As far as golf,I can play to par on any course with any clubs, anywhere in the world.
Been doing it for yrs.
Played a 72 yesterday,when I hit 72 I quit,might be six holes,on a good day maybe 10 or 12.Head on in to the clubhouse and bitch about just getting around with par score:)

---

Well, I am very pleased that you have these talents, and, thank you for making my point. Good shaving. ;)

In the six months i have been shaving with straights, i have learnt alot, enough to know that you can set yourself up for under $100, i have expensive razors, soaps, and brushes, but my current favorites are an $8 boker, that i honed myself, arko soap, not much around cheaper than that, and a $5 horsehair brush, and i get a great shave. One thing, without this site and the huge amount of information on tap, i probably would have given up. No you don't need those crutches, but them darn razors are so pretty lookin.

Six shaves in to this cold water face lathering shave routine and they all have been excellent shaves. I have used a variety of different grinds on razors ranging from no name to some decent vintage stuff, a variety of soaps/creams from a Williams stick to Cella, either a boar or 2 band badger brush and they all gave a decent lather with some better than others. The only common denominator seems to be that the razors used had a good sharp edge which I did no destroy stropping them.

All I can say is that I think most of the problems encountered by beginners such as myself are for the most part self inflicted by poor technique. Poor stropping technique leads to dull razors/cut or nicked strops. Poor lathering technique leads to an uncomfortable shave. Add poor shaving technique on top of that with a sub par blade and ouch. All the little niceties that we all like to add such as expensive soaps, razors, scuttles, brushes, strops and even hot water are not strictly necessary for a good shave. They are however very gratifying to use and enhance the shaving experience tremendously but don't trump technique. OK end of rant.

Bob