overhoned confusion

I am a new member and this is my first post. I'm excited about shaving and think this will be great once I finally get it down.

I have one new Thiers Issard and new 4k/8k norton stone.

I have tried to sharpen this and failed. It basically won't cut my beard.

I'm currenty shopping microscopes so that I can get a good look at it but wonder if I have over honed or not enough?

How do I know when to stop using a hone and switch to the strop.

I have Lynn's video and have watched but I assume the razors he is sharpening are dull?

If I have overhoned - how do I start over?:confused:

That's a shame - new TI's are generally shave-ready for anybody but an SRP member (we tend to have somewhat elevated expectations).

Did you lap your norton before attempting to hone your razor? Did you read the stuff in the library about honing, sharpness tests, etc before you started? If not you need to read that ASAP.

A small Pyramid up to 5/5 and down again would have done you fine I think. Have you found the Pyramid file in the Permanent archives of the Help Files?

At this point you could probably do a small or medium Pyramid (up to 10/5 or 15/5) and then go for the Hanging Hair Test to see how it responds. Use the search function here for a description of that test. When you're popping hairs off the 8K you're good for the strop and the Shave Test.

X

I have read a lot about sharpening - likely I need to read more. I'm going to buy an inspection microscope so I can see exactly what the results are when I sharpen. This way I will know what a sharp razor looks like.

Also I will try the pyramid method.

Still troubled by the "over honed" description. Wouldn't the solution for this be to hone again? And then wouldn't you be honing too much again? seems circular.

Also, The TI might have been sharp but I have a very tough beard. When I tried to use it the blade gripped hairs enough to pull at them but not enough to cut.

Thanks again for the help

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Originally Posted by joddpur

Also, The TI might have been sharp but I have a very tough beard. When I tried to use it the blade gripped hairs enough to pull at them but not enough to cut.

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I've got a tough beard too and well honed straight shouldn't pull much at all, no more than an M3 or thereabouts. However, on your first couple of shaves it's not unusual to get pulling even very sharp razors because of problems with your technique and prep.

First as to scopes try edmunds scientifics they have a bunch to choose from at all prices. They are on the web.

I really hate that term overhoned almost as much as over sharpened. The fact is the edge is ruined plain and simple. So you have to take steps to bring the edge back to shaving condition. Usually some back honing will do the trick if thats the only problem and you have a wire edge. If you have micro chips you probably need some pyramid routine as X says.

I have many TIs and with the exception of the damascus all the others were either shave ready or very close to it and only took a very brief honing session on the coticule (30 strokes or less) Of course they could be improved upon but they really weren't bad out of the box.

The trick when your starting out is to hone very little and test alot so you don't ruin that edge. Use the usual tests and of course shave with it as the final test.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joddpur

Still troubled by the "over honed" description. Wouldn't the solution for this be to hone again? And then wouldn't you be honing too much again? seems circular.

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Not really. An overhoned edge is very weak and tends to collapse as soon as it touches anything. What you need to do is "reset" the edge by running the razor through something like a match or cork or piece of paper, which breaks off the weak edge. Then you can work on honing it back up to sharp again.

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Originally Posted by mparker762

What you need to do is "reset" the edge by running the razor through something like a match or cork or piece of paper, which breaks off the weak edge.

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Or simply go to a lower grit stone for the same purpose.

X

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Originally Posted by mparker762

... well honed straight shouldn't pull much at all, no more than an M3 or thereabouts.

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Wow, Michael!

I might be unrealistic, but in order to have a razor join my top shavers' club (currently 7 razors out of >30) it must earn a 9+ out of 10 rating and it must not pull AT ALL. It must glide, like your description of certain razors wiping off the stubble. It must also feel smooth on the skin.

I certainly would not allow a razor that pulls as much as the M3 in my top rotation. I think if it's only as good as M3 - most likely, it didn't get enough hone loving. I have 9 or so razors in various stages of honing, which I hope to include in the top shavers' club at some point when I hone right. (and other 10 or so razors I have not even touched yet :eek: )

After typing all this, though - I think I might have had problems using the M3, as I agree that it is sharper than the razors... But we knew this - if I didn't have problems, I wouldn't go the DE and then the straight way. I think I am able to get less pull with the straight (which is duller) because of the ability to control the angle to my liking, better than I am able to do so with a DE or M3

Cheers
Ivo

If a razor that's not warped and is in a reasonable condition gives me any sort of pulling, that means it's not shave ready yet. Ivo, you're absolutely correct on this count. However if one of your razors is getting close but is not there yet, try altering the honing technique (usually a lighter touch is required). I can almost guarantee that a few rejects will shave at least as well as your rotation pieces.

Glad you agree, Ilija!

Now - the light touch and few laps approach works mighty fine. Except when you work with specials, which have uneven spine wear or funny geometry. Sometimes you simply need to take some (more) metal off to set things straight.

Cheers
Ivo

Everything, from my own blades to a lynn-honed wonderedge to a feather AC pulls to some extent on my beard, the difference between them is a matter of degree. Whether this is because my beard is really tough or because I'm using a different definition of "pull" than everybody else is an open question that I've yet to answer.

And then there's the question of natural resistance and actual pulling. That's what makes this an art more than a science.

Yes, Michael - maybe what you call "pull" is for me "glide" :shrug:

:HJ I was wondering how is the Lynn-honed Wonderedge working out for you (compared to the TI LE and RW, which I guess are your best)

Cheers
Ivo

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Originally Posted by izlat

I certainly would not allow a razor that pulls as much as the M3 in my top rotation.

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I didn't say a razor that pulled about like an M3 is worthy of a top spot in the rotation, just that it's about the limit of what I'd consider shave-worthy.

I shave with a straight because electrics jam on my beard and blister my face, the M3 and M5 need more passes for a good shave than my face can handle, the DE blades flex and chatter and nick me in the tough parts, and the Feather is too touchy for daily 6am decaffeinated shaves. The straight chugs through my whiskers like a snowplough, doesn't beat up my face, and is fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

Yes, Michael - maybe what you call "pull" is for me "glide" :shrug:

:HJ I was wondering how is the Lynn-honed Wonderedge working out for you (compared to the TI LE and RW, which I guess are your best)

Cheers
Ivo

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It could be - as I said, I've never heard a good, commonly accepted definition for "pull". Some guys try to distinguish between "resistance", "tug", "pull", and "painful" but for me it's all one continuum, I've never been able to tell a clear boundary except between pull and painful. At any rate no razor I've ever used has hit zero on this scale.

As for the M3 comparison - those of you with an M3, prep your beard like you would for a straight shave then give the M3 a stroke, I think you'll be surprised at how much easier it is than when you were shaving with cream-in-a-can.

As for the wonderedge, I've only shaved with it once and I was in the thrall of my Robert Williams razor at the time. It was spectacularly sharp, the fourth-sharpest razor I've ever used (1st is Feather Pro, 2nd is Feather Super Pro, 3rd was the Willams in full tune). It's actually sharper than I really like in a razor - I've been a fairly vociferous opponent of the Feather because its sharpness means it's very unforgiving, too unforgiving for a 6am uncaffeinated shave. I've actually detuned my Williams to a level I'm more happy with, but can't bring myself to do it to the wonderedge so it's sitting in its little casket resting happily.