Premature dullness: strop technique suspected. Angle? Pressure? Fix?

Just a month after getting my full hollow Birsmarck Registered well honed, I find it's suddenly seeming dull in the last few shaves --- shaves ~15 and 16 on this hone. I'm still just six weeks into SR shaving. I typically strop 20 passes before and after shaving, on a well oiled Whipped Dog poor man's strop, using an X pattern.

So, my initial diagnosis: mis-stropping.

Since I lack good anchors from which to suspend my strop, and I do have a valence style sink with a long, flat counter, I lay the strop flat on the counter edge, and strop the razor in a right-left motion.

I've been very lucky/good at avoiding flipping the blade edge down and nicking my learners strop. But, I often notice when I strop, unless I've just rubbed in a couple drops of oil on the strop, the surface feels a bit viscous and tacky -- so I tend to oil it almost every time.

Theory 1: the blade's not square with the strop. Now that I've got a good blade flip going, I like to speed up, but when I speed up, I find that I'm slightly tilting the scales and tang into the direction of the strop, so that the blade is about 15-20° off square. Is this dulling my blade?

Theory 2: too much pressure. To deal with the aforementioned strop tackyness, and just because I'm still not fully familiar, in order to keep the spine and edge of the blade in contact with the strop I find myself using a bit of pressure.

Anyway, I started finding the blade riding up over the whiskers using technique that a few shaves ago would have given me a good, close WTG pass, and ATG pass requires more pressure and multiple passes to get a less close shave. So, I'm experiencing rapid blade dulling.

What I tried last night is a balsa wood and grit touch up. The balsa is the one which comes with the Whipped Dog kit. 20 blade strops green then 20 more red, then 40 strop passes (slow and careful and square) on the strop. This helped. But it's still feeling like it could use more.

So, what about my diagnosis?

And, what's the best way to regain as much of an edge as I can given my tools?

FYI, I have two other blades which are in better shape to shave with, but am noticing some premature dulling there too. The Torry half hollow and the J Wostenholm wedge both seem to be maintaining their edge better - I presume because they're thicker steel blades.

Thanks!

SingingSteel

If you're really bent on hanging that strop up, you can loop the arrow shaped end around a doorknob and the thread it through the hole in the strop.

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Originally Posted by Xaved

If you're really bent on hanging that strop up, you can loop the arrow shaped end around a doorknob and the thread it through the hole in the strop.

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Was about to suggest the doorknob myself, I only palm rub my strop to maintain condition

Though not completely necessary, personally, I would hang the strop. While you don't have to, my experience has been easier to use a hanging strop while hanging than on a table/countertop, as the strop tends to move on me while on a flat surface. My future hook to do so was purchased at Home Depot for about $3, and I'll be anchoring it to a stud in the wall. Currently, I'm in the midst of a bathroom remodel to our Master Bath, so I'm stuck using our tiny hall bath. In the mean time, I'm using a bit of paracord (again, picked up at HD for about $3) to anchor my strop to the door knob. I tied a loop of paracord through the ring of my strop, then I fold the loop in half and bring both sides around to form a second loop to slip over the door knob. Trust me when I say that short of the knob coming off the door, it's not going anywhere.

As for the pressure issue, you want to pull/push the blade up and down the strop, not push the blade into the strop i.e. no downward pressure. Let the blade glide across the strop using it's own weight to keep it against the strop. It may take more push/pull pressure if your strop has a lot of draw, but better that than downward pressure to force the blade to move.

I don't have any experience with using strop pastes, but a lot of members say that, depending on which you're using, the edge will be sharp but not smooth. That said, it's possible that after using your pasted balsa strop you may have sharpened it up, but it's not smooth. Being new, this may be hard to tell the difference.

I know you asked about your current gear, but one thing to consider is getting a barber hone for touching up the blade between honings. That and your pasted strop should keep you going for a long time. The barber hone is easy to use and there's little risk of damaging the blade or edge if you brush up on the subject. In fact, gssixgun has a fantastic video on YouTube about using one. If you follow his advice, you should be just fine.

One final piece of advice- since you're in NJ, I know there are lots of members in your neck of the woods. I might see if any of them would be willing to meet up with you and watch your technique to help correct any mistakes you might be making. That or go to a local group meet. You'll gain much more wisdom and experience in person than over the net.

Overall, I would suggest concentrating on your pressure during stropping, as that is the main suspect in my opinion.

Keep at it, and eliminate one variable at a time, and you'll get there.

Thanks, Xaved, EdHewitt, Crouton, SirStropalot.

Consensus seems to be from response here and elsewhere: hang the strop, use lighter pressure, and, since it helped a bit, try a few more rounds on the pasted balsa (20 passes on chromium oxide, followed by 20 passes on iron oxide grits, then 40 on the strop, all from The Whipped Dog, from whom I bought the SR start-up kit, including strop, neat foot oil, balsa pre-pasted and with extra grits.

I agree with SirStropalot, my strop is probably oiled enough. To make sure I'm not suffering from oil slick, I'll warm it up with a hairdryer a bit, give it a good hand massage to work oil in our out, and then rub it down with a cotton rag just to make sure I've reduced surface oil. I imagine I'll invest in a better strop after a few more months, around the time I can no longer remember the last time I accidentally nicked or sliced my strop, and really feel I've mastered it enough to justify deeper investment. I don't want to hack up an expensive strop; I'm very cost-sensitive.

I also suspect eventually I'll progress to exploring honing with some of those hi-tech honing films (papers, sheafs, or whatever they're called), which seem to be getting a lot of late-breaking love and attention here and elsewhere, and seem like a very low cost-to-entry honing option over stones. For me hanging the strop off the door handle or hinge via Crouton976's loop seems the best solution at the moment, before I go installing hardware.

And, I've made contact with the guys who just organized the NNJ meetup a couple of weeks ago, and hope to learn from them first hand sometime this summer.

Great video -- thanks. From it I see that angle of my blade edge to the strop and direction of strop is not my problem -- looks pretty much like Lynn's. I've just gotta hang my strop and try it that way -- the hand motion looks much more comfortable and natural than the strop lying flat on a horizontal surface.

Not at all frustrating. Just the world showing me what I need to learn next! And, thankfully, I've got a place, here, with a supportive and knowledgeable community eager to help! If more of life were like this, we'd all be further along.
THANKS

Here's a couple of pics demonstrating what I mean about tying the loop...

Attachment 133768Attachment 133769Attachment 133770

Well, that helped...

Oil and Strop draw: I inspected the strop carefully for oil content. It has no oily feel, sheen or slickness to it to the touch. So, I think the oil I've applied to it thus far (~fifteen drops over six weeks on a 3' x 2.5" strop) has just sunk into the leather. I rubbed it down with a cotton cloth, just to remove a bit of whatever surface oil I could get, which was none to virtually none. What I did then was simply give it a few firm strokes with my palm, rubbing it a bit.... e violoa! Now it was ready for action: the draw was smooth, clean, not at all tacky. While I thought what the strop wanted each time was a drop of oil massaged in, it really just wants a quick rub by a warm hand. (don't we all...)

Strop hanging helped immensely! I suspended the strop from the bathroom door handle and stropped just like Lynn in the video -- and finally stropping looks, sounds, and feels right. It's way easier this way. Thanks for emphasizing that, everybody.

Refreshing the edge with grit stropping on the balsa: I doubled down on the balsa & grit stropping: 40 strops on chromium oxide, 40 strops on iron oxide, followed by 50 strops on the now properly hung and palmed strop. Major improvement. I regained about 50% of the lost sharpness -- while picking up some.... what's the proper word? nickiness? I suspect what's needed is to double or triple leather stropping strokes to smooth out the refreshed edge.

I vaguely recall reading somewhere about a proper ratio of grit or hone strokes to strop strokes... does anyone recall?

I wonder if I repeated this procedure (40 more strokes on chromium oxide, then iron oxide, then 120 strokes on leather) I'd get even more sharpness back, while smoothing the 'nickiness'?

Feedback?

Thanks SRPers!

Glad to hear you're on the path for success... :)

I don't know that I've heard about a ratio of pasted strop/hone passes to leather strop passes, but someone may have said that at one point. My honest advice on that would be to experiment and see what works for you... after all, each blade, owner and face are different, so YMMV.

As for repeating it, you can give it a try. You most likely had a rolled edge and the paste is restoring the edge to shave ready, at least to an extent. It may not be able to bring it back all the way, so be prepared to send it out for another honing session, but I'd definitely try the pastes first.

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

I wonder if I repeated this procedure (40 more strokes on chromium oxide, then iron oxide, then 120 strokes on leather) I'd get even more sharpness back, while smoothing the 'nickiness'?[/B]

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That worked out really well: I ended up doing 60 strokes (back and forth) on chromium oxide, 60 on iron oxide, and 120 on the leather strop, now properly hung, with just a quick palm rub prior to stropping. That was the trick. It feels as if I've returned the blade to the edge it came with a month ago fresh from being honed.

But, now I've fully shaved off the last remnants of my boxed in beard and moustache... I knew getting the chin and upper lip would be tough... but this tough? Today was my third SR shave of both, and I can't seem to get the upper lip without a few weepers.

Suggestions?

Thanks everyone!

SingingSteel

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

That worked out really well: I ended up doing 60 strokes (back and forth) on chromium oxide, 60 on iron oxide, and 120 on the leather strop, now properly hung, with just a quick palm rub prior to stropping. That was the trick. It feels as if I've returned the blade to the edge it came with a month ago fresh from being honed.

But, now I've fully shaved off the last remnants of my boxed in beard and moustache... I knew getting the chin and upper lip would be tough... but this tough? Today was my third SR shave of both, and I can't seem to get the upper lip without a few weepers.

Suggestions?

Thanks everyone!

SingingSteel

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Suggestion: 97 more shaves:)

I would highly suggest toning down on the pastes a bit. Overuse of pastes will create a wire edge, and paste will not be able to fix the resulting damage. Sometimes too much of a good thing isn't very good, especially for razors.

Typically it should take no more than a dozen laps, depending on the type of paste. Start at 5 laps and test. As Lynn always says, less is more. Definitely sage advice when it comes to pastes and sprays.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I would highly suggest toning down on the pastes a bit. Overuse of pastes will create a wire edge, and paste will not be able to fix the resulting damage. Sometimes too much of a good thing isn't very good, especially for razors.

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Great info here:) am slowley beginning to think that all these potions are maybe not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Great info here:) am slowley beginning to think that all these potions are maybe not a good thing.

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Thanks :)

It's not that they are bad, just that they should be used to refine an edge. If guys are using paste constantly to fix quick dulling edges it's time to re-examine why the razor is dulling so fast; stropping and shaving technique being the most common issues.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Thanks :)

It's not that they are bad, just that they should be used to refine an edge. If guys are using paste constantly to fix quick dulling edges it's time to re-examine why the razor is dulling so fast; stropping and shaving technique being the most common issues.

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When my hone guy died 5 yrs ago (williams Cutlery,4 bux ea) I had to learn myself,I fell into the newbie trap that since honing was a major learning curve, Pastes and sprays were a good thing:) Not.
I never use them anymore,they may have a place in the scheme of things,just not for me.

I have over stropped on pastes. What I have found is when you over do it you can definitely get a wire edge. That's why I like the hht. If you don't pass hht, you may have that wire edge and 5 more laps may be enough to remove it. I do hht after the 8k and since I'm not an expert, I may be over honing at times.I used to scratch my head and now if it doesn't pass, I will give it 5 more and sure enough that was all it needed. It may not be scientific but I have found it works for me.

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

Theory 2: too much pressure. To deal with the aforementioned strop tackyness, and just because I'm still not fully familiar, in order to keep the spine and edge of the blade in contact with the strop I find myself using a bit of pressure.

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Too much pressure is bad when using a strop. It is much worse if abrasives are involved. Coupled together your razor's edge would be all kinds of wrong.
Correct honing would fix that. Incorrect stropping will take you right back there in a short time.

Also, if you bought a strop that needed that much oiling are you sure it's not a piece of rawhide ?

Thanks for all this feedback.

Well, I'm not yet possessed of hones nor honing skills, and the grits came with the Whipped Dog SR starter kit: the strop, neet foot oil, chrome oxide, iron oxide, balsa wood grit strop. The instructions did suggest that the grits shouldn't be necessary until after a few months -- I am aware that the dullness seems due to my own newbie technique errors. Nonetheless, I was extremely careful with the grits not to use any pressure.

Suspending the strop seems to have solved many problems. The problem was not the strop, it was the fact that I hadn't suspended it, and the horizontal surface was causing me to compensate with too much pressure, which was also the source of perceived sluggish strop draw. While I may have used more oil than necessary, it doesn't seem so much as to have saturated the leather. All stropping issues seem solved by suspending the strop.

Post grits, the edge feels and performs like it did when it first got honed, at least for today's shave. Thanks for the HHT reminder -- I'd forgotten, and that would have been wiser after five or ten passes at a time. Let's see if this edge endures. I presume wire edges quickly disintegrate into ragged nightmares...? How can you tell if you've got a wire edge without a microscope? What does become of wire edges? If I have in fact created an unstable wire edge, then I guess I'll have learned my lesson the hard way, and will have to get this blade rehoned.

Ryan82: what shaving technique can prematurely dull a blade?

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

Ryan82: what shaving technique can prematurely dull a blade?

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Not answering for Ryan but overly high angle will do it. It's akin to dragging a knife edge over a chopping board.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Not answering for Ryan but overly high angle will do it. It's akin to dragging a knife edge over a chopping board.

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Ahaa. Not something I've done, though, so that one's off the list of potential causes.

Improper shaving technique would include high angle, excessive pressure and straight-down cuts - this will dull and edge quickly.

This assumes that your stropping is indeed effective and the razor itself is sound (good steel, good geometry, properly honed).

Yes, I realize that there are many factors to consider, which makes it very difficult when you are new. Concentrating on one factor at a time will make the diagnosis A LOT easier.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

Improper shaving technique would include high angle, excessive pressure and straight-down cuts - this will dull and edge quickly.
This assumes that your stropping is indeed effective and the razor itself is sound (good steel, good geometry, properly honed).
Yes, I realize that there are many factors to consider, which makes it very difficult when you are new. Concentrating on one factor at a time will make the diagnosis A LOT easier.

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Honed for my by an avid hobbyist. I presume it's honed well, although I wouldn't know. I understand a high angle -- anything above, let's say, 45 degrees? And, excessive pressure makes sense, but I have no objective means of measuring, just my own experience and comparative sense memory. What is a straight-down cut?

The razor: Bismarck Registered, pictured below.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2mpity9.jpg

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

I understand a high angle -- anything above, let's say, 45 degrees? And, excessive pressure makes sense, but I have no objective means of measuring, just my own experience and comparative sense memory. What is a straight-down cut?

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I'll try to address your concerns one at a time:

1. Optimal shaving angle is around 30º. This translates to 1-2 spine widths from the face.
2. Pressure should literally be just enough to scrape the lather off your face. If you have to use more pressure than that your edge is likely not sharp enough.
3. By straight cut I meant the edge is straight across, or parallel to the floor. It works but is not the most efficient cut. Most of us graduate to other types of strokes ie heel or toe leading (also known as the guillotine stroke) or scything. Here's a link to the library that will better illustrate my point.

If possible, try to hook up with a mentor or another member in your area. I haven't done a member search but I believe that Mvcrash is in Jersey. Send him a pm and maybe he can help you out.

The Wosty edge looks damaged unless the 2 shiny bits are dust.

So is the avid hobbyest an SR person with experiance,to me all those edges look suspect,JMO

Well, the avid hobbyist is a nice guy who honed the Bismarck free, and sold me the Wostenholm wedge and Torrey, shave ready, $25. If I recall correctly, he's been at honing a couple years or so. I got great shaves for the first few weeks from the razors. Then it was either my poor technique in shaving, stropping, or possibly some deficiency in the honing which may be playing out, most obviously with the Bismarck, although to a lesser extent with the others.

If I wanted to get a blade honed, who offers the most affordable verified good honing?

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

The Wosty edge looks damaged unless the 2 shiny bits are dust.

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Artifacts of lighting. It's fine.

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

I'll try to address your concerns one at a time:

1. Optimal shaving angle is around 30º. This translates to 1-2 spine widths from the face.
2. Pressure should literally be just enough to scrape the lather off your face. If you have to use more pressure than that your edge is likely not sharp enough.
3. By straight cut I meant the edge is straight across, or parallel to the floor. It works but is not the most efficient cut. Most of us graduate to other types of strokes ie heel or toe leading (also known as the guillotine stroke) or scything. Here's a link to the library that will better illustrate my point.

If possible, try to hook up with a mentor or another member in your area. I haven't done a member search but I believe that Mvcrash is in Jersey. Send him a pm and maybe he can help you out.

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Hmmm, thanks for the vocabulary. I've been picking up that straight cuts weren't as good as blade techniques on a bias with a little bit of slice, such as the scythe which I've been trying to do more of. I've already reached out to MVCrash, who organized a northern NJ gathering a few weeks before I joined SRP. I'm hoping to hook up within the next few weeks. Thanks, Ryan82!

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

If I wanted to get a blade honed, who offers the most affordable verified good honing?

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Pretty much anyone here with some experience under their belt. You'll work out who they might be.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Pretty much anyone here with some experience under their belt. You'll work out who they might be.

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Gee, that was pretty much the same level of verified good that the guy who honed the blades had. I'm looking for more.

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

Gee, that was pretty much the same level of verified good that the guy who honed the blades had. I'm looking for more.

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Perhaps the most "verified good" honemeister on this forum is Lynn.

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Originally Posted by SingingSteel

Gee, that was pretty much the same level of verified good that the guy who honed the blades had. I'm looking for more.

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When all else fails the search button can help. Try this list.
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