Circular vs straight brush strokes

Just got my replacement Simpson Colonel brush direct from the UK (thanks to excellent customer service from Simpsons -- see separate thread titled "Shedding Simpsons").

The directions that come with every Simpsons brush say to use back-and-forth strokes rather than circular strokes for brush longevity. I've read this elsewhere too, that circular brush strokes are hard on the brush hairs.

I want to do the best I can to preserve a nice brush, but find it very difficult to load the brush with a hard soap with back-and-forth strokes on the soap. It's no easier face lathering with the same back-and-forth stroke either. And virtually every video I've watched, including Lynn's DVD, shows experienced shavers using circular brush strokes, both for loading the brush with product and for face lathering.

So --- what's the truth here? Does anyone actually use exclusively back-and-forth brush strokes to load and lather? Does it matter, for brush longevity, or can I just forget about this and do what seems most natural and use circular strokes?

This is just a guess at why Simpsons have that warning not to use circular strokes with their brushes so take it for what it's worth. I would think that there are people out there that just mash the knot flat when using circular strokes and I am sure that qualifies as abuse to the brush and causes premature wear.

I do not mash the knot flat to load or face lather with but use just enough pressure to lightly splay the knot. I have not seen any ill effects using shave brushes this way. I am not recommending it in the face of Simpsons warnings but just saying that is what I do. Yes, I do have a few Simpsons brushes in my rotation.

Bob

It will probably last longer but that's because you're not really using it imo, wear and tear is natural for almost any tool that gets used and I think the direction is just some BS that manufacturers write to cover their a**es for when someone damages their brush by using too much pressure or when someone is disappointed that they need a new brush after 20-30 years.

I exclusively face lather so back and forth strokes would get me nowhere when shaving and my brush is still going strong after 4 years of bi-daily use.

I think it's easier to tangle the hairs in a circular motion causing clumping which may lead to shedding. I use circular motions and painting strokes. Don't mash the brush. Just use the tips. My Colonel shed on its first two used and has not shed since nor have any of my other quality brushes.

I start out doing circular strokes to spread the cream around and whip it up real good, but then go to a painting stroke to even out the stuff on my face.

Dont really see any issues with my brushes.

Gentlemen,

I use both strokes about the same amount with some variations thrown in for good measure. No, no, mashing the brush onto the soap puck or the face is cause for shortening the brush's life. I load the brush using the tips, lather in the bowl using the tips and then apply the lather using the tips. After all, the shaving brush is not like a potato masher.

I only use circular motions both for loading and applying- can't imagine doing it another way! I have no idea what the expected lifespan of a brush is, but mine is about to turn 2 and it is still going strong

I agree with BobH on the not mashing, but would say that where I'm from in the US, we'd call it 'butt-covering' on Simpson's part.

I've been using a brush to lather since 1975 or so, and I have always loaded the brush by doing circular strokes...never wore one out. I think you could die of boredom trying to load it back and forth, but then I only have one Simpson. Most of my other brushes cost less.

Thanks everyone! Great stuff. Confirms what I was hoping, that circular strokes just make sense and seem natural, for loading and lathering (with some linear "painting" strokes to even out the lather). Agree with watching out for mashing the brush.

Just wanted to confirm, in my relative newbie status, that I wasn't missing the boat.

yea, I use both types of strokes with all my brushes and my oldest ones are about 15 years old and they haven't lost a hair or shown any negative signs so.....

A barber friend of mine who is 4th generation barber told me to use short 3-4 " back and forth strokes and make sure it's against the grain of your beard. Then use a paint motion to get off excess lather and smooth the lather out. I find it works very well and I don't put as much pressure on the brushes. I still think if you are using a good soap or cream you could use your hand and get a good results. Barbers do it so how bad can it be?

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Originally Posted by 400E

. Confirms what I was hoping, that circular strokes just make sense and seem natural, for loading and lathering (with some linear "painting" strokes to even out the lather).

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Sorry, but I don't agree. If you are using a circular stroke, then you are putting a constant stress/pulling in one direction during the entire time you are doing that circular motion. If you do back and forth strokes, then you are changing up the direction of the stress/pulling. I think this is the logic Simpson is using.

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Originally Posted by jkatzman

A barber friend of mine who is 4th generation barber told me to use short 3-4 " back and forth strokes and make sure it's against the grain of your beard.

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Back and forth cannot both be against the grain.

I spoke to a brush maker (knots, not just handles) a few years back. He's been in business for decades, so I think it is safe to presume that he knows. He said, "do not use circular motions", for the exact reason Ron just mentioned.

That said, he also said, "feel free to clean your brush using [amongst others] circular motions in your hand." I found that odd, but he had an interesting explanation: "The skin on your hand is softer than your bristles and those of your brush. It's the bristles on your face that do the real damage over time."

I hope that helps.

I can't imagine not using circular motions. I would think pressure is much more important than direction to prevent brush damage. Like others, I face lather, starting circular and ending with paint strokes. My daily brush is about six years old and going strong.

If I only get a few years out of a brush and have to purchase another one, that's OK with me. Don't think I could do just back and forth strokes but might give it a shot just to see where I get with it. Looking to buy my first quality brush so I'm off to browse the forum.

There are two things that can, eventually, kill a badger brush: dryness, and friction.

Dryness is typically caused by a lack of removal of soap residue. A shampoo and conditioner every so often can remedy that issue. Failure to remove soap residue will make the badger hair become brittle and, again eventually, break. The often recommended method of "mushing and swirling" is something that should be avoided by all means. Lather is produced by driving air into the suds, and the only part of the brush which can do that is the tip area. Therefore, soap and lather in the core of the knot serve no purpose, but jeopardise the integrity of the knot.

Friction is something that affects the tips. If you own a high quality badger brush, it will have very fine tips. These can develop spliss if you apply too much pressure against something sturdier than the tips itself. For example, bristles.

Or so the story goes. Call me biased, but if a seasoned brush maker (knots, not handles) tells me that is how it works, I tend to believe him.

I'm not a seasoned brush maker - but I am a seasoned user of over 50 years and I really can't believe anyone could contemplate not using circular motions when soap loading or when face lathering. I have used badger brushes for a big part of those 50 years and, apart from the odd one which shed because of a poor knot construction, I've never experienced broken tips or any other signs of undue wear.

It was said earlier, it's a tool for use. Let's not be too precious with our tools.

Hmmmmm

The soap pucks and the Scuttles are round, I would think if I was supposed to go "Back and Forth" somebody would have made them square :p


Just saying



The brush in the hand goes round and round, round and round, round and round.... Come on you know the tune :D

Not Invented Here: Ideas and arguments are not evaluated equally if they come from outside a social sphere.

Attachment 215359

I have a few boars and badgers, and I think splaying the bristles down firmly is what harms the brush, not circular vs. back and forth. I employ both methods, and my brushes have lasted for years.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Sorry, but I don't agree. If you are using a circular stroke, then you are putting a constant stress/pulling in one direction during the entire time you are doing that circular motion. If you do back and forth strokes, then you are changing up the direction of the stress/pulling.

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Ok then why when you want to break a "Strand" of something do you move it back and forth applying stress from both directions to create a weak point and finally a fracture...

Second by your logic if I go both Clockwise and Counterclockwise using the circular pattern I am achieving the exact same thing :shrug:



Just to get totally pedantic about something totally ridicules :)

I agree 100% with BobH. Don't mash the knot! I can see the validity of changing the stress with a back and forth stroke, but like Glen says, all soap containers are round. Aren't clockwise then counter-clockwise circles kinda doing the same thing? If circles are bad then someone needs to explain how to load Cella soap in the little red container with back and forth strokes....

Pete <:-}

You guys are all nuts!

The only way to load your brush is using a Foucault's Pendulum setup. Rig up a bit of string from the top of the house, hang your brush off that so that it just touches the soap. Set it swinging, allow the earth to rotate for 24 hours and viola! ... a loaded brush the way nature intended!

If you have the time, this too is the only way to lather your face with the loaded brush - just lie down under the brush pendulum setup and allow the rotation of the earth and the swinging of the pendulum to impart the lather to your face.

Make sure you hydrate the brush adequately as it tends to dry out over a 24 hour period.

James.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ok then why when you want to break a "Strand" of something do you move it back and forth applying stress from both directions to create a weak point and finally a fracture...

Second by your logic if I go both Clockwise and Counterclockwise using the circular pattern I am achieving the exact same thing :shrug:



Just to get totally pedantic about something totally ridicules :)

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Glen, I grew up on a farm and "cut" a lot of barbed wire that way. I thought of that even before I wrote the above but was trying to understand the logic of the brush vendor. Don't worry, I was not arguing for Robin!

Anyway, while still trying to come to terms with what the brushmaker said, the breaking you described is only accomplished when you are focusing the bending at one specific location rather than along the entire length. I envisioned the issue had to do with pulling the end of the hair out of the knot rather than to a breaking of the hair somewhere along its length.

Gentlemen,

Since my last post early in this thread, I have returned to face lathering, my first love. I load the brush in a circular motion on soap or hard cream and just dip it into soft cream. Only the tips are used in both loading and lathering. No mushing the brush. I then lather in intervals of circular movement, paint brush movement, and variations thereof. Listen, nothing but variety for this Hollywood face.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Glen, I grew up on a farm and "cut" a lot of barbed wire that way. I thought of that even before I wrote the above but was trying to understand the logic of the brush vendor. Don't worry, I was not arguing for Robin!

Anyway, while still trying to come to terms with what the brushmaker said, the breaking you described is only accomplished when you are focusing the bending at one specific location rather than along the entire length. I envisioned the issue had to do with pulling the end of the hair out of the knot rather than to a breaking of the hair somewhere along its length.

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I have tried to figure it too

Besides just lack of brush care period

it seems to me that the two things that would effect wear the most,,, is the actual "Edge" of the handle where the knot meets it, and the texture of the Cup/Scuttle/Mug

Using the pumping motion when loading and smashing the brush might be worse but it also lessens the swirling time by a substantial amount so maybe it is a trade off :shrug:

I only know that my two oldest Badger brushes in the den do not shed, and show no signs of damage, and I am pretty abusive by reading this thread


Once again just for clarification I think the whole issue is ridicules, and I am awaiting a square soap/container better yet 8" x 3" to get better surface contact while loading...

My brushes start out the morning in a cream pitcher from Goodwill, soaking till I need it. I am a circular loader of soap/cream and a circular and back and forth whipper of lather. Looking for an acceptable rectangular container to do only back and forth whipping for lather (feel it "gets" there faster.) Brush is washed in the creamer under running water with an up and down motion till the water runs clear. Then squeezed damp dry and hung bristles down to air dry.

When you bend metal back and forth, the crystals compact and become brittle, and will eventually crack from the movement. Any metalworker will tell you that annealing the metal will loosen up the structure, allowing for more bending. Springs use a different structure and therefore can take more flexing without becoming brittle...do you think your shocks compress less often over 50,000 miles than a brush in a lifetime?

Take a hair off your head, soak it thoroughly, and see how many times you can bend it back and forth 2" from where you're holding it before it breaks. I'll look for your answer next year. :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ok then why when you want to break a "Strand" of something do you move it back and forth applying stress from both directions to create a weak point and finally a fracture...

Second by your logic if I go both Clockwise and Counterclockwise using the circular pattern I am achieving the exact same thing :shrug:



Just to get totally pedantic about something totally ridicules :)

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You can also stress break a piece of wire by clamping one side of the break (pliers, holding with a bit of a kink) and rotating the other side.

This might be a good way to measure the stress on a bristle, i.e. get two bristles, secure them apply a given amount of force to said bristles and rotate one, whilst to and fro-ing the other.

we would need to find some way of ensuring that the forces and speeds were indicative of how real shavers use their equipment so I suggest founding a research institute for such matters.

Other areas i suggest that we propose funding for would be:

- Hanging hair test - standard hair.
- Finding the best hone for any given razor, or even the "miracle hone".
- An enthusiasm V experience gauging tool.

:)

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Originally Posted by edhewitt

- An enthusiasm V experience gauging tool.

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I'm quite confused by this one. Is it of an "adult" nature or what?

I'll do an experiment with two different brushes of the same brand and model, using one back and forth, and the other circular swirls. Neither will be mashed. Assuming that both badgers were healthy, it should be a valid test. I'll get back to you in 20 years or so when the hairs that didn't shed in the first week start to break off. :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I'm quite confused by this one. Is it of an "adult" nature or what?

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No Ron,
I meant a tool to guage the advice given in a BS detector way.

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

I'll do an experiment with two different brushes of the same brand and model, using one back and forth, and the other circular swirls. Neither will be mashed. Assuming that both badgers were healthy, it should be a valid test. I'll get back to you in 20 years or so when the hairs that didn't shed in the first week start to break off. :rofl2:

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Well, not quite 20 years, but I still have my first brush, a saville row, which I purchased in 2003. I used it with circular strokes (no mashing) exclusively before it was put into semi-retirement in 2008.

I was concerned about what was happening in the middle of the brush and after some reading, figured that it was probably due to the circular motions causing more wear on the middle bristles. So I bought a fancier Rooney silver tip in 2008 which I have been using since with brush strokes only.

Not a fair comparison, as they would have to be identical brushes, but still indicative.

Here they are pictured next to each other.
Attachment 215445
Attachment 215446

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Originally Posted by petercp4e

I agree 100% with BobH. Don't mash the knot! I can see the validity of changing the stress with a back and forth stroke, but like Glen says, all soap containers are round. Aren't clockwise then counter-clockwise circles kinda doing the same thing? If circles are bad then someone needs to explain how to load Cella soap in the little red container with back and forth strokes....

Pete <:-}

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As I understood it the damage, doing circles, comes from the hard beard hairs. I assume it's pretty safe to load a brush on either a soap puck or a tub of cream using circles.

BUT your circles should be widdershins ! :p

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

You guys are all nuts!

The only way to load your brush is using a Foucault's Pendulum setup.

James.

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It swirls the opposite way here in the Northern Hemisphere! ruined my favorite brush!

Although the instructions say to use paintbrush motions, I use circular strokes to load the brush and lather on my face. I only use the back and forth strokes at the end to get an even coverage of soap on my face just before the shave. My brushes are in excellent shape, and as previously said, it's the "mashing" of the knot that damages the brush. If you just use the tip of the brush, I can't see a problem. The brush lathers 100% better with circular motions, so why not?