In the Market for New Horse Hair Brush -- Anyone with Experience?

Hi folks,

I've more or less decided to buy a new horse hair brush and am at a bit of an impasse. I ask for people thoughts fully realizing that personal preference will always be the deciding factor here and also knowing that probably no matter what I get I'll likely be happy with it anyhow. Still, if anyone has any of the brushes in consideration I'd very much value their experiences with them.

I already have one horse hair brush, the Vie-Long Cachurro (21mm knot, 61mm loft, 25% mane/75% tail), which was actually my very first shave brush. I've always liked it a lot, but since my Mühle STF and APShave Co synthetics it hasn't gotten a lot of love. In general, I'm a face latherer and the Cachurro is a fairly floppy brush, so I decided pretty early on that my next horse hair brush needed to have a bit more backbone to it. I've basically spend the last 2 evening reading and watching reviews of these brushes and so have narrowed it down to three brushes, each with their own pros and cons.

First, the Vie-Long Peleón with at 11.50€ is easily the best bang for the buck of the bunch I'm considering. It has a 24mm knot is a combination of 35% mane/65% tail brown hair set at a 50mm loft. The shorter loft and larger knot should give it substantially more backbone and people seem to really like this brush.

Second, one of the Vie-Long White Hair brushes, such as the 13071B (at 29.95€) or the 13061B (at 31.50€). These also have a 24mm knot but the hair is white (which people say tends to be softer) and the hair combination is 50% mane/50% tail, something that should also make it softer on the face, though with approximately the same backbone (according to reviews).

Finally, the Epsilon White Hair which at 43.75€ is the most expensive. It too has a 50mm loft and is 50% mane/50% tail. The larger knot should give this one the most backbone and lots of people who have this absolutely love it, but the downside is first the price and it's sheer size.

Initially, I thought the decision was easy and I'd be buying the Epsilon, but as I thought about it more, all of my brushes are 21mm and 22mm and even though I'm a fairly big guy I can easily get 4 passes from them; indeed, one of the critiques of the Epsilon is that it is a "lather hog" and basically presents you with a "wall of hair".

Of course there is also the question of fan vs bulb shape, but the difference in these brushes isn't so extreme so I'm not too worried about it (still, if you have thoughts on the matter I'd love to hear them. So, that's where I'm at. All very similar, but different enough that I feel like there is a decision to be made. I'm really, really trying to avoid succumbing to BAD and just accepting that I'll buy all three at some point.

Thanks for reading!

I'm not the biggest fan of horse knots for face-lathering as the tips can be a bit prickly, but between the brown and the white knots I would say that the white knots (the banded knots too) are a bit softer. Personally, I like the older bulb-style, longer-loft offerings that Vie-Long used put out. The Epsilon offerings seem like they are trying to cater to Anglo-American tastes for thicker waists and shorter lofts, and this has turned me off to trying them. I have the older 13071 with the banded knot and it's a nice all-around brush with enough backbone or me, although I would want something a little bit smaller for face-lathering.

I have given up on horse hair brushes, even though I still may have one or two survivors in my drawers.
I found that horse hair brushes tangle easily and tend to shed.

The only exceptions, surviving to this day, were the white hair variants as these were the only ones who did not tangle or shed.

Hence my only choice would be either the Vie-Long or Epsilon white hair one that both come from the same stable anyway.


B.

Thank you both for your replies. Even just narrowing things down to the white hair brushes is really helpful. A friend of mine just offered to lend me his 24mm Vie-Long white hair brush so that should give me the sense as the whether I want to go with it or the larger 26mm knot. In general I tend to think that 26mm is too large for face lathering (though I know there are people who face lather with even larger brushes), but I suspect that a horse hair brush will feel smaller than it's equivalent in synthetic or badger.

I have a Vie Long. Love it. Really scritchy. Works well. Great for something different on occasion, not as nice as other things but really makes you appreciate them! ;)
If mine got gone, I would buy another. Even IF mine was a gift! ;)
Only pics handy..


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Just curious. What interests you so much about horse hair as a brush?

Because they exist for some apparent reason. Have for a few centurys.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Just curious. What interests you so much about horse hair as a brush?

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Well, I'm a fairly active and adamant vegetarian, the reasons for which are complicated and probably not so relevant just here and now; still, it remains that I try to avoid or minimize my use of animals as much as possible. For this reason I've always used synthetic brushes, with the exception of the the one horse hair brush I already have, and avoided boar and badger. Basically, I'm looking to add some variance to my shaving routine and think that horse hair can give me something far different than I could get with a synthetic. Not to mention, as sharptonn so eloquently put

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Because they exist for some apparent reason. Have for a few centurys.

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Well....JMO....I had rather push a horsehair brush than drive a synthetic. Lots closer to the Earth.
It's a cool brush! After a few Oxyclean baths to get the stank out...

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

Well, I'm a fairly active and adamant vegetarian, the reasons for which are complicated and probably not so relevant just here and now; still, it remains that I try to avoid or minimize my use of animals as much as possible. For this reason I've always used synthetic brushes, with the exception of the the one horse hair brush I already have, and avoided boar and badger. Basically, I'm looking to add some variance to my shaving routine and think that horse hair can give me something far different than I could get with a synthetic. Not to mention, as sharptonn so eloquently put

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That makes perfect sense.

I've always wondered if the horsehair brushes used back in the 19th century are the same as the ones they are selling these days. Being so popular back then and kind of rediscovered more recently you wonder if they had it down to a science then and have they had to re-engineer them these days.

Seems that Anthrax thing did them in for a long time. Even as it was over.

The shape seems similar, like boar?. Just looking at old adverts. Could be some modern advantages?

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I've always wondered if the horsehair brushes used back in the 19th century are the same as the ones they are selling these days. Being so popular back then and kind of rediscovered more recently you wonder if they had it down to a science then and have they had to re-engineer them these days.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

The shape seems similar, like boar?. Just looking at old adverts. Could be some modern advantages?

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I think this is really interesting to think about. I don't recall having ever seen a vintage horsehair brush, despite their historical popularity. I've wondered too how closely the modern horsehair brush is in behaviour to those from the 19th century. Though they aren't as common as the people who are really into boar or badger (or even synthetics), every once in a while I come across someone who is really passionate about horse hair brushes.

Something else I've picked up is that there doesn't seem to be the care with horse hair to keep the original tips to the end of the face, so unlike a badger hair brush with a horsehair one can trim down the bristles even once the knot has been set. I don't know how true this is, but when I find some time and motivation I think I might try to collect some hair myself and do a bit of testing with it.

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

Well, I'm a fairly active and adamant vegetarian, the reasons for which are complicated and probably not so relevant just here and now; still, it remains that I try to avoid or minimize my use of animals as much as possible. For this reason I've always used synthetic brushes, with the exception of the the one horse hair brush I already have, and avoided boar and badger. Basically, I'm looking to add some variance to my shaving routine and think that horse hair can give me something far different than I could get with a synthetic. Not to mention, as sharptonn so eloquently put

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Good to know the reasons. To expand the palette, I would refer you to some of the last remaining Taylor of Old Bond Street "imitation badger" brushes on the shoeboxshaveshop website. A bit of a mystery as to what the hair type is, but my sense in having looked at the tips with an 11x achromatic loupe is that they appear to be mostly made of horse hair. But I could be wrong in this. Softer than the Vie-Long horse hair knots in any case. Another option might be the Vie-Long horse hair/synthetic knot blends. I have not tried the latter, but I imagine they would be softer than straight V-L horse for face-lathering. Best synth knots I've tried have come from the H.I.S. brush line. Almost a dead-ringer for banded boar out of the box and the backbone/feel is terrific.

Update to my earlier post:

The two horse hair brush “survivors” that I still own are incidentally a 13071B and 13061B.
As far as the hair is concerned, I can tell no difference and they both behaved so far rather well (compared to other horse hair brushes).

I think there is no difference except for the two-tone handle on one model that may explain the price difference, but I always liked the (cheaper BTW) 13071B wood imitation.

You don’t seem to care for the 26 mm size of the Epsilon, but there are in fact several Epsilon white horse hair brushes with the dimensions you mentioned.

https://www.giftsandcare.com/en/88-h.../brand-epsilon

Some of them have a fan shape and if you like fan shapes that might be a reason to choose the Epsilon, but otherwise you might as well choose Vie-Long, who also make the horse hair brushes for Epsilon, the brand name for Gifts & Care products.

Regarding the Epsilon price and assuming that you found the brush on the Gifts & Care website (I am unsure whether they are sold elsewhere), keep in mind that for these brushes shipping may be free and for shipping outside the EU you would be paying the price excluding tax shown (in smaller print). So the whole bill, Canada Customs excluded, could come down to just over C$50.

Hope this helps,


B.

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

To expand the palette, I would refer you to some of the last remaining Taylor of Old Bond Street "imitation badger" brushes on the shoeboxshaveshop website. [. . .] Best synth knots I've tried have come from the H.I.S. brush line. Almost a dead-ringer for banded boar out of the box and the backbone/feel is terrific.

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Thank you for this! I'll look into both the Taylor of Old Band Street imitation badger and the H.I.S. synthetics. Another I was considering was actually an Omega S-Brush for a synthetic boar feel. What little I've heard about them is that people like that and often compare them to natural boar that hasn't yet been broken in. They are very affordable so no doubt I'll find myself with one at some point.

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Originally Posted by beluga

Update to my earlier post

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This does help, actually. It isn't so much that I don't care for a 26mm knot, I've just never used anything larger than 22mm so there are a lot of variables that are new to me and that definitely sets my control issues on edge, ha! For all I know I might actually really love the larger brush. I find it pretty reassuring that the two horse hair brushes you kept were also the ones I was considering. I'm curious, do you notice much difference between the fan and bulb shapes (if you happen to have both)?

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

This does help, actually. It isn't so much that I don't care for a 26mm knot, I've just never used anything larger than 22mm so there are a lot of variables that are new to me and that definitely sets my control issues on edge, ha! For all I know I might actually really love the larger brush. I find it pretty reassuring that the two horse hair brushes you kept were also the ones I was considering. I'm curious, do you notice much difference between the fan and bulb shapes (if you happen to have both)?

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No, not much difference.

The majority of my brushes are closer to bulb shapes, but I also have a typical fan shape that arrived just a few months ago.

For face lathering bulbs tend to have more backbone, if you have a large puck of triple-milled hard soap in a flat bowl a fan brush may come handy as it picks up more soap, but to avoid floppiness a fan may need a shorter loft.

So the theory goes, but in reality you will find few pure bulb or fan brushes and most are blends of both styles.

Regarding size, I found 26 mm just about perfect for me and would not particularly care for anything less than 24 mm, or more than 28 mm.



B.

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

Thank you for this! I'll look into both the Taylor of Old Band Street imitation badger and the H.I.S. synthetics. Another I was considering was actually an Omega S-Brush for a synthetic boar feel. What little I've heard about them is that people like that and often compare them to natural boar that hasn't yet been broken in. They are very affordable so no doubt I'll find myself with one at some point.

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I would take the H.I.S. synth knot over an Omega S-Brush knot any day. The only drawback is that the H.I.S. handles are too large for my taste, apparently for mug lathering. But the knot rules in the end. If I could pair them with the Omega handles I would.

Horse hair brushes lather really well for me but I can't get past the smell. Its very distracting and annoying. Maybe I have an el cheapo brush.

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Originally Posted by MisterClean

Horse hair brushes lather really well for me but I can't get past the smell. Its very distracting and annoying. Maybe I have an el cheapo brush.

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How long have you had it for? The one I had probably took 4 or 5 uses before the smell wasn't overwhelming. I agree with you in that it (or at least mine) lathers really well.

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Originally Posted by ppetresen

How long have you had it for? The one I had probably took 4 or 5 uses before the smell wasn't overwhelming. I agree with you in that it (or at least mine) lathers really well.

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I've had it for three years, I've used it maybe a couple o dozen times. I finally shelved it.

They are BAD. A coffee cup of water up to the handle bristles-down, a bit before. A heaping tablespoon of Oxyclean tossed in and then the brush, bristles down.
Let it fizz until it stops fizzing. Check the water as you pour it down the sink......Likely nasty! Lots of rinsing.
Give it the nose test. Have had to do some twice, but never 3 times.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

They are BAD. A coffee cup of water up to the handle bristles-down, a bit before. A heaping tablespoon of Oxyclean tossed in and then the brush, bristles down.
Let it fizz until it stops fizzing. Check the water as you pour it down the sink......Likely nasty! Lots of rinsing.
Give it the nose test. Have had to do some twice, but never 3 times.

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Agree, nothing I couldn’t get under control with shampoo.

What was more vexing was the constant shedding and tangling.
I wondered sometimes whether I might have overdone the shampooing bit early on, but doubt that.
Be that as it may, the (natural) white ones did not have such problems and are the only survivors.

After reading this tread, I brough out my two survivors and used them for the last few days and they produced a nice lather with no shedding.
More prickly feeling than the synthetics, Silvertips or Super Badgers that I normally use, but not bad.


B.

My Vie-Long Cachurro had a slight smell, but nothing to horrible. I still haven't picked one to buy (the guy I work with keeps forgetting to bring his 24mm white horse hair brush in for me to try). At this point, my curiosity is so piqued that I'm certain I'm going to go ahead and buy something at the very least.

Given how soft the synthetics are, the bit of scritch that comes with a horse hair brush is something I'm maybe even craving a bit.

Well, after all that I finally managed to borrow a friend's Vie-Long 12705B, a 24mm white horse hair knot in a fan shape, and... I really did not like it! It took hard soap really well produced good lather, but it also was very reluctant to let that lather go. At one point despite there being lots of lather left in the brush I still couldn't get enough for another pass. The feel of the bristles was fine but overall I was very surprised that I strongly preferred my cachurro horse hair. At this point, even if the Epsilon brushes are better, I can't imagine them being so much better that I really want one. If I found myself with one I think it would be ok and find occasional use but at this point the illusion is somewhat dispelled and don't think I'll go and buy one.

Thanks again to everyone who shared their knowledge and thoughts about these brushes -- much appreciated.

My understanding is that Epsilon brushes are made by Vie-Long, although the latter has recently been acquired by another company who's name I do not know.

As for the horse-hair knot hogging the lather, this has not been my experience. Particularly with bowl-lathering, I prefer both a horse-hair knot and a boar knot to badger as the former two shed the lather back into the bowl more. With horse-hair knots, I only soak them for 30 seconds prior to loading or lathering, as a longer soak causes the bristles to clump together.

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Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

My understanding is that Epsilon brushes are made by Vie-Long, although the latter has recently been acquired by another company who's name I do not know.

As for the horse-hair knot hogging the lather, this has not been my experience. Particularly with bowl-lathering, I prefer both a horse-hair knot and a boar knot to badger as the former two shed the lather back into the bowl more. With horse-hair knots, I only soak them for 30 seconds prior to loading or lathering, as a longer soak causes the bristles to clump together.

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Interesting. Maybe the problem is simply that I'm a face latherer for the most part. I know horse brushes are typically associated with bowl lathering, but I had really hoped that the shorter loft and larger knot would facilitate face lathering. I wonder if, like the Cachurro, I am more drawn to the brown hairs instead of the white ones.