ethical badger brush

hello,
im a newbie and have been lurking for a while. i have tried the straight razor shaving but have had poor although improving results.anyway maybe later we can discuss that.i've looked in past forums but couldnt find an answer to my question.what i was really wondering is whether there is an ethical from the point of cruelty badger brush. i was watching a sky news report here in ireland about the disgusting dog and cat fur trade in china . have a look at the peta website.some of those animals are stolen pets!
they skin some of them alive.as most if not all of the badger hair comes china i'm sure although i have no guarantee that there treated the same if not worse. when i bought my badger brush i would have liked the option of a brush without the cruelty. mine is cyril s salter brush.some websites suggest that they are sheared but mr moss refutes this.i certainly dont wish to provoke an argument and am not a fanatic but just wished to hear your thoughts.
thanks guys,
nev

This is info from The Gentleman's Shop:

"Every so often we receive phone calls or
emails from concerned customers
regarding the sourcing of Badger hair that
is used to fill shaving brushes.
We can confirm that English Badger Hair
is not used in the badger Hair brushes we
supply. All of the badger hair used by our
suppliers is sourced in the People's
Republic of China and originates in remote
regions, where the badger is regarded as
vermin and may potentially breed out of
hand if not controlled by culling.
The badger is not an endangered or
protected species in China. Peasants kill
the animals under a controlled
environment in order to protect livestock
such as chickens - a main food source in
itself. The hair is collected by a cooperative
in order to realise a group
revenue whenever the badger population
is in danger of overrunning the natural
animal balance and causing severe crop
damage."


Hope this puts your mind to rest:)

have fun,
Nenad

Thanks superfly,
i still wonder how their killed, the whole point of the fur industry is to not damage the fur and as a result barbaric methods are used to kill the animals in china.you would also wonder about commercial standards. in countries which respect animal welfare there are standards for killing animals.this video showed and i think seems to be widely accepted that standards in china are not up to scratch,ie bear bile collecting etc.you have to be suspicious what comes out of china in terms of press reports ,no free press etc.whos definition they are vermin for instance.technically stray dogs could be vermin but we dont skin them alive.i'm not suggesting their not vermin but i would prefer their was independent inspectors there to check it out.i'm not against badger brushes and the killing of animals just good standards i suppose and if the hair could be utilised without killing,could they be sheared?, thanks anyway superfly.

Nev,

If you're concerned, you could always use a synthetic bristle brush? They certainly exist, presumably at least in part for people who have the same objection you do.

I haven't used one, though, so I can't really comment on how good a shave they give. Omega makes one, I think, and IIRC, the Trafalgar Shop has them. But their site seems to be down as I write this.

Good luck!

Keith

Good post Nev.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nev

Thanks superfly,
i still wonder how their killed, the whole point of the fur industry is to not damage the fur and as a result barbaric methods are used to kill the animals in china.you would also wonder about commercial standards. in countries which respect animal welfare there are standards for killing animals.this video showed and i think seems to be widely accepted that standards in china are not up to scratch,ie bear bile collecting etc.you have to be suspicious what comes out of china in terms of press reports ,no free press etc.whos definition they are vermin for instance.technically stray dogs could be vermin but we dont skin them alive.i'm not suggesting their not vermin but i would prefer their was independent inspectors there to check it out.i'm not against badger brushes and the killing of animals just good standards i suppose and if the hair could be utilised without killing,could they be sheared?, thanks anyway superfly.

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Nev,
Let me start by saying I have no first hand knowledge of how badger hair is collected in China. In truth, I use a synthetic brush (Men-u company, it works for me--at least for now). However, you are correct to be leary of what is reported...not only from China, but also by PETA. I too do not wish to enter an argument, but at least some members of that organization border on eco-terrorists. They have a definite adgenda so unless you can find objective corroborating information elsewhere, take what you find on their website with a grain of salt. This advice applies to much of what is distributed over the web (present site excluded...of course ;) ).
Ed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForestryProf

... PETA. I too do not wish to enter an argument, but at least some members of that organization border on eco-terrorists.

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And what's wrong with eco-terrorists !?!??! :mad: :rant: :mad:
(heh, jus' kiddin' again)

Not wanting to start an arguement, but IMO there are much worse things I worry about then where the hair on my badger brush comes from. Taxes, terroism, war, child abuse, spousel abuse, etc. Just my .02.

Yeah I use a Men-u synthetic brush as its what I brought when I first started (a couple of months ago). I get pretty good results and the slight deficiency I put down to my still improving technique rather than the brush. They won some grooming award over here in the uk so I guess if you dont mind a slight performance drop they make a reasonable alternative (although I cant personally compare to a proper badger brush having never owned one).

Although Truefitt and Hill say that you can use their shave creams with your hands thus saving the whole argument.

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Originally Posted by max_incognito

Although Truefitt and Hill say that you can use their shave creams with your hands thus saving the whole argument.

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The problem with that is, that even if you could get a satisfactory lather (and I'm not sure you could) you lose the exfoliating benefits of using a shaving brush in the first place. More than any part of my kit, the brush and a good cream make the most difference in how good a shave feels, and how close it is.

And, of course, if you do that, then all those badgers died for nothing! Do you want that on your conscience?! *ahem* But, seriously, folks...

I don't have any knowlege of how badgers are slaughtered in China either. However, I think a synthetic brush would be a reasonable alternative. I'm not aware of any "eco-friendly" brush companies out there - As classicshaving mentions, the badgers who give their hair to make brushes will never grow another coat.

Nev, you could always just write away to one of the suppliers and see if they give you a satisfactory answer, though I'm not sure what you get wouldn't be propaganda of one kind or another.

Good luck, though!

-Keith

I think if your really concerned abut the ethical treatment of badgers you just shouldn't shave with a natural bristle brush. Its really that simple. I would take a claim from any commercial operation that the animal was treated humanly with a grain of salt.

The fact is the badger is a pretty ferocious creature. If you've ever cornered one you know what I mean. A spooked badger can force a Grisley Bear to back down so no wild badger is going down without a fight.

Nev,
I think I would eye that PETA website with a bit of skepticism; that said, I own one of the Men-U synthetic brushes and like it quite a bit. Its somewhere between boar and badger (the feel of the brush) but lathers really well, at least for me. And it does just as well with any cream I've tried it with.
Otherwise, you have some research to do. Yes its possible badgers died for your brush (among other things...wouldn't surprise me if quite a few ended up in a stew pot) Not only that but painbrushes, makeup brushes....If a badger dies/gets sheared/whatever they do, it definitely is not being wasted. Whats left is up to you to decide.
John P.

all good points guys,
you do have to be careful what ngo's say, everyone has an agenda. yes my next purchase if i ever need one will be a synthetic brush, and as jerseylawyer says you can get a good shave with one i'm struggling to get a good shave with a badger brush so i suppose for a newbie there are far bigger issues for a newbie like sharpness of edge than quality of brush,and there i was hoping i'd get a good brush and cream and all my problems would dissappear.anyway i have ordered a classic shaving dovo sharpened by lynn on order so i'll hope to get back to you later about more relevant not so political matters.
i'll also take up your point about contacting the manufacturers no harm to see what they say,
thanks guys nev

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The fact is the badger is a pretty ferocious creature. If you've ever cornered one you know what I mean. A spooked badger can force a Grisley Bear to back down so no wild badger is going down without a fight.

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Well... this doesn't sound like a critter anyone is likely to try to skin alive.
Drifting off topic...
I have a friend who works for the department of motor vehicles, and does environmental impact studies where road work is being done. He has lobbyists from PETA come to visit him from time to time if there are issues involving animals, like displacing beavers or something.
One of the PETA folks gave him an official PETA coffee mug. He has it proudly displayed on his desk... filled with Slim Jims. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The fact is the badger is a pretty ferocious creature. If you've ever cornered one you know what I mean. A spooked badger can force a Grisley Bear to back down so no wild badger is going down without a fight.

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Badgers are tenacious fighters and extremely fierce. No other animal will mess with them 1 on 1 except maybe a game pit bull. They have been horribly abused (badger baiting) for the sake of entertainment in England for centuries. I own badger brushes but shudder at the thought of their tratment by the Chinese. I really appreciate posts that make me (at least) think about where stuff comes from. Let's raise a glass to the tough little badger.

http://www.sybadgergroup.f9.co.uk/img29.gif

Ah hah! I knew I'd seen a site that treated badgers humanely. Raise a glass to the poor S.O.B. that gets to shear the badger!

Humane badger brushes (scroll down towards bottom of page)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mgraepel

Ah hah! I knew I'd seen a site that treated badgers humanely. Raise a glass to the poor S.O.B. that gets to shear the badger!

Humane badger brushes (scroll down towards bottom of page)

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I'm halfway tempted to say "phooey". I would take that claim (that the badger are "sheared like sheep") with a grain of salt. A big grain. Maybe an entire can of Mortons....

I don't have anything authoritative to say they're wrong, of course. But it just seems to strain credulity.

-Keith

And what would a PETA approved strop look like?

regards &c
LG Roy

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Originally Posted by Library Guy

And what would a PETA approved strop look like?

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maybe... just linen?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JerseyLawyer

I'm halfway tempted to say "phooey". I would take that claim (that the badger are "sheared like sheep") with a grain of salt. A big grain. Maybe an entire can of Mortons....

I don't have anything authoritative to say they're wrong, of course. But it just seems to strain credulity.

-Keith

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I see your can, and raise you a 40lb bag of Mortons salt pellets! :p

I think it's interesting to note that this is the only website that lists these Col. Conk brushes as being from 'sheared' badgers. You can see several of what appear to be the exact same brushes at www.col-conk.com/brushes.htm and yet oddly they do not mention this 'humane shearing' selling point. Nor does any other retailer of Col. Conk. that I've been able to find. Perhaps they have an exclusive arrangement with them? ;)

An even more detailed *story* about the 'sheared' badgers can be found here.

Christian

Wow, I've helped shear thousands of sheep, but I really want to see a Badger shearing, now that would be a show. I wonder if they castrate them when they are 'cubs' in order to make them a little easier to handle. Would the 'nads still be called Rocky Mountain Oysters? I agree with Bill, 'don't ask, don't tell.'

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Originally Posted by rexj

Wow, I've helped shear thousands of sheep, but I really want to see a Badger shearing, now that would be a show.

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I believe they're plucked to extend the lifespan of the Badger Hair producing Badger and humanitarianness for the animal. It was months before they got the idea to sedate them first. We lost a lot of good men and women that way. ;)

X

Here's another interesting article about how tame badgers can be. :eek: This little critter they named Boris. He looks so tame in the picture. I don't know what they pay these Badger shearers, but I hope they have life insurance! :D

Hmmm.
badgers seem pretty fierce to me. maybe I could get one as a pet, and let the neighbors' dogs wander over to see the new "kitty" LOL
Now I wonder though; perhaps no badger technically died FOR OUR BRUSHES...what if it happened like this: Somewhere in China people have a recipe, in which a prime ingredient is-you guessed it-BADGER. Well they've been eating this dish for centuries, when one day some Brit working for Simpson, or someone like that, says "Hey WAIT a minute, don't throw out that hide....!" and the rest is history.....so it was killed for the RECIPE, not our BRUSHES...


or not...


John P.

That is the theory I subscribe to. Just like one day an enterprising young fellow walked into a butcher shop, saw them preparing to throw away what was left over from making NY Steaks and said "Hey wait a minute- I can make strops out of that!" And what would have otherwise been turned into wasteful shoes is now made into a fine sharpening instrument which will last a lifetime. :p

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Originally Posted by Ravenflight

... wasteful shoes ...

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Now THAT'S a SoCal attitude. Shoes are not only optional, but unnecessary! I hear ya. I only wear them when I have to.

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Originally Posted by xman

Now THAT'S a SoCal attitude. Shoes are not only optional, but unnecessary! I hear ya. I only wear them when I have to.

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Well I meant wasteful as in people tend to throw out their shoes after 6 months or less of wearing them. Personally I wear Wesco 12" Highliner Boots to work which can be rebuilt and therefore can last for a very long time, but in this disposable society, I fear I am in the minority.

I still shave barefoot, though I have started wearing pants while shaving- after reading a post about what a straight razor might remove if it were to slip from the hand and fall to the floor. :eek: Some of my appendages are more valuable than others. :D

I don't know how humane this is...maybe it falls more under recycling than humane treatment of badgers. Anyway, I make my own badger brushes. You see, I am "fortunate" enough to live near a road where badgers tend to cross quite often, and, like any animal that crosses roads long enough, some are bound to get smacked by a car. Such is the case on my road.

So, somedays I will see a badger on the side of the road and I will jump out and take whatever cut of hair I am currently in need of for whatever brushes I am making at the time. Other days, I can smell that a badger has been hit and I will make a point to go out and get it while it is still fresh and before it has a chance to have the hide damaged and filled with rocks and things.

You may be wondering why I cut the hair on site rather than taking the badger home and skinning it, thus being able to make use of the entire hide. Well, I don't know how many of you have been close to a badger, especially one that has been hit by a car, but those suckers smell to high heaven. I did put one in the car once, but it stank up the car so bad, and me and my clothes as well, and the kitchen, and my wife's washing machine.....well, you get the point. No more whole badgers for me.

As long as I am at it I am looking for folks to try out some of my brushes. The latherability is excellent. The last bit I am working on is the smell. For some reason, all the bristles have a bad odor on them that I have not been able to get out no matter how I try.

One last thing: my bristles come in jet black, pure white, or a mixture of black and white. My badgers seem to have a streak of longer white hairs down the back so I am able to make them more white than most others you have seen.

Let me know who wants to try one,
showme

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Originally Posted by showme1or2

One last thing: my bristles come in jet black, pure white, or a mixture of black and white. My badgers seem to have a streak of longer white hairs down the back so I am able to make them more white than most others you have seen.

Let me know who wants to try one,
showme

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Great, now my wife thinks I'm nuts from having laughed so hard at my computer :D

Badger sounds tasty, reminds me of the story of the old boy that when the judge asked him what the animal he poached tasted like, replied "Ohh in between Spotted Owl and Bald Eagle." By the way I wear Wesco's too.

Is that "Show me one or two badgers and all I see are brushes yet unmade"?
You're gonna get a reputation as a Badger Wrestler now! :D

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Originally Posted by showme1or2

One last thing: my bristles come in jet black, pure white, or a mixture of black and white. My badgers seem to have a streak of longer white hairs down the back so I am able to make them more white than most others you have seen.

Let me know who wants to try one,
showme

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If no one is interested in such a fine brush, I have recently noticed Solid white, Tabby striped, and even exotic "calico" colored badgers wandering around here,
Be the first on your block to get an ALL-WHITE badger brush, or even a black or orange one! then laugh at all the "losers" who are stuck with crappy imported stuff.....
Leave the Plissons and Simpsons to the masses. THESE badgers are only for DISCERNING gentlemen in the "KNOW".

John P.

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Originally Posted by JohnP

If no one is interested in such a fine brush, I have recently noticed Solid white, Tabby striped, and even exotic "calico" colored badgers wandering around here...
John P.

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You must live near me! I have a tabby & white mixed one that comes into my yard all the time to badger my prized Koi and poop on my grass. I have been wondering what to do with it- turning it into a brush doesn't sound like a bad idea! :p

OOOOOHHHHH.....
That is a HIGHLY PRIZED badger and should be made into brushes IMMEDIATELY! A genuine, lowland-urban calico-white shaving brush would be the ENVY of everyone on here....
Of course, if it eats your Koi, the badger is RUINED; best to catch and "shear" the badger before it ruins its fine bristles in this way....
:D
John P.