Massacre at Virginia Tech

The first question that I and several of my colleagues asked when all of this happened was why didn't somebody tackle this kid and beat him dead? I do not blame these kids, and who are we to arm chair quarterback here - but this guy is said to have fired over a hundred times - and the best that anyone could do was to block a door?

It is easy for me to have said that I would have braved the hail the bullets and climbed up this guy and beat him with the bloody stump of his own arm, but truly what was going on here?

The sense of entitlement that Jason was talking about is also a very ironic innate trust that someone will take care of us, that it is the policeman's job to protect us, the governments job to make sure that we are safe - and in a social contract sort of way, it is - but in reality we are all on our own here. We should not and cannot expect anyone in authority to do anything for us - weird thing is that the vast majority of Americans have (since Nam at least) a deep mistrust of the authorities and take them to task every chance we get. But we still remain and are becoming a nation of "sheeple", unable or afraid to take matters into our own hands when it seems the right thing to do because we have been programmed that it is just not right, politically correct or polite. We believe that the villain at the door will go away if we hide, will just leave - be it a shooter or global warming - that someone else will take care of it. It just isn't going to happen.

This reminds me of a recent incident down here in Texas (Burleson I believe) - a school district that hired a safety expert who came in and was teaching kids in a secondary school to *resist* if a gun man came in and tried to hurt any of them - he was teaching them what to do, to throw things, to fight back...the school board received complaints and fired him - it was all over the news. But I tell you this, I am going to teach my daughter to fight, my only beautiful child and the second most graceful woman in my life at 9 months old, to fight with every fiber of her soul and every weapon at her disposal - to control her own fate, and not leave her life and my grace in the hands of any demented, tortured and lesser being.

I saw the tv news article with the father of the lovely young woman who lived modern dance, and was killed - and I died a little with every picture and held back tear. I mourn their lost youth and my own. Spes Es Vigilante Somnium = Hope is the Dream of the Vigilant.

K

One of my friends goes to Virginia Tech. The first shooting happened on the floor above her. I feel sorry for her and the other students; it'll be a long time before she and others feel safe on campus.

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Originally Posted by Kriton

The sense of entitlement that Jason (Justin) was talking about is also a very ironic innate trust that someone will take care of us, that it is the policeman's job to protect us, the governments job to make sure that we are safe - and in a social contract sort of way, it is - but in reality we are all on our own here. We should not and cannot expect anyone in authority to do anything for us - weird thing is that the vast majority of Americans have (since Nam at least) a deep mistrust of the authorities and take them to task every chance we get. But we still remain and are becoming a nation of "sheeple", unable or afraid to take matters into our own hands when it seems the right thing to do because we have been programmed that it is just not right, politically correct or polite. We believe that the villain at the door will go away if we hide, will just leave - be it a shooter or global warming - that someone else will take care of it. It just isn't going to happen.


K

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Very true Kriton --we saw this in Louisiana when we were hammered by two Cat 3-4 hurricanes (Rita and Katrina). People were waiting for the goverment to say what to do, when to leave, ---- I'm sure some who stayed could not leave but not all --- and many died. And afterwards people were waiting for government handouts and to be saved. People who didn't need aid (I knew a few) were asking for it as if entitled and with no shame (there was a time when people were shamed for needing charity) and all types of waste was amounted.

From some political perspective (from where and for what I do not know) , people are being taught to ignore their rights of self-preservation and personal defense. Everything in your body, brain, genetics, and soul cries out to fight back and stay alive but because of some undefinable force (at least for me), people are being trained to be as you say "sheeple" ---I don't get it and can't see the positive outcome from it --
Is there any wonder why this guy picked a gun free zone to commit this massacre? The ultimate example of a little "utopia" where political correctness is the rule and young people live under the guise of a "gun free zone" and believe others will protect them --- good upstanding citizens will obey the laws but the deranged and criminal never will.

Peace to everyone,

Justin

As a father of two kids, I'm with Bruce on this one. That's what I'm trying to teach my daughters - think for yourself and do what you need to do, ignore some rules if necessary.

Bruno is right too, though: he might have been picked on. Yes, we all might be driven to kill. But it must be quite a thing to get you like that if you are normal?

(I went to a private school with extremely rich kids. Some were very nice, others were model a-holes - but I was never much of a target so I still cannot comprehend what he must have suffered to do this. Sure, having a guy who alternated M3, Mercedes, Harley, Ducatti and I forgot what else make fun of my $700 junker was not fun for me either...)

Ivo

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Originally Posted by izlat

(I went to a private school with extremely rich kids. Some were very nice, others were model a-holes - but I was never much of a target so I still cannot comprehend what he must have suffered to do this. Sure, having a guy who alternated M3, Mercedes, Harley, Ducatti and I forgot what else make fun of my $700 junker was not fun for me either...)

Ivo

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I think the guy came from an upper middle-class family. His sister graduated from Princeton -- he was going to a nice school --- He wasn't exactly from the hood and living on food stamps --- He had a false sense of persecution which might have been brought on by some bullying ---- try to find someone who hasn't been messed with by somebody --- his grandmother (back in Korea) said he was never right in the head --this didn't just happen over night. I don't think anyone could be pushed to do something like this --- it would happen far more often -- not to mention, most of the time, these killers match a certain personality criteria ---white males, loners, etc ---I was think thinking pissed off white guy when I heard of the Virginia Tech murders.


Justin

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Originally Posted by Kriton

The first question that I and several of my colleagues asked when all of this happened was why didn't somebody tackle this kid and beat him dead? I do not blame these kids, and who are we to arm chair quarterback here - but this guy is said to have fired over a hundred times - and the best that anyone could do was to block a door?

It is easy for me to have said that I would have braved the hail the bullets and climbed up this guy and beat him with the bloody stump of his own arm, but truly what was going on here?

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I had the same thought myself, honestly. If a couple of people, or perhaps even one, had decided to risk it all trying to stop the gunman, how might this look different? Undoubtedly, the first person to try it would be killed, even if he managed to gain enough momentum to knock the shooter down first. But how might things have turned out differently had that happened? If a few people had the courage to make the sacrifice, perhaps ten, fifteen or twenty of the victims may still be alive.

And what about the door barricade? I read that when the gunner tried to enter, he did put his shoulder into it and opened the door six inches or so. He was forced back. He fired the gun though the door, thinking the students where behind it; they had had the forethought to use a table. Why, when he was attempting to force the door, couldn’t someone have stood by the opening with a knife? The gunner would be facing the door opening, unable to effectively acquire a target as he would be straining against the door, probably expecting the students inside to be cowering, anyway. I know that someone, if not several people, must have had pocket knifes. A quick strike to the exposed throat, the spree ends there. Maybe this was the last room the gunner tried to enter before putting the gun to his head and it wouldn’t have mattered anyway; I don’t know. These thoughts have been running through my head the last few days.

At the same time, what you said about armchair quarterbacking is also true. I have never been shot at; I have never seen the person next to me or across the room from me be gunned down. Have you? Unless you have military experience, and perhaps even then, it is unlikely you have experienced anything quite like this, I know I haven't. I know what I would like to think that I would do. It is so easy to imagine myself doing something heroic when I sit here safe at home. It is so easy to paint these elaborate images of how I would know exactly what to do, and would do it, selflessly and without hesitation, just like the hero in the movies. But by the grace of God, I wasn’t there. I have never had to make that choice. I have never had to face that paralyzing fear.

And maybe they did try something. Maybe a few of those students who were gunned down were gunned down running towards the gunner, instead of away. Maybe many of them.

I do agree that we need to be taught to fight back. We do have this culture that says the only people who are supposed to do anything are The Authorities. Recently, I read about an elderly man who was charged with assault or something crazy like that because he brandished a shotgun at several thieves who were robbing his neighbor’s property. I think they were siphoning gas, I cannot remember. This gentleman held them at gunpoint until The Authorities arrived. The thieves were charged with theft; the citizen with assault, or whatever. Even one of the criminals publicly declared that the man had acted appropriately. Eventually the charge against the man was dropped after the public outcry, but the fact that they even considered it is disturbing. Growing up, my parents made it clear that if I ever got in trouble at school for starting a fight, the civilized world would come crashing down on me when I got home. If I ever got in trouble for fighting back (which I would have, if the fight was detected by The Authorities), my parents would have backed me all the way.

-Michael

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

I was think thinking pissed off white guy when I heard of the Virginia Tech murders.

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I was thinking disgruntled white guy too (For the record, am white… not posted a photo anywhere yet). It turns out to be a crazy South Korean who thought the world owed him something. He should have been running a country, not a school shooting. I suppose that shows the erring of making assumptions about people based on where they come from. Otherwise, he fit the profile to a T: Loner, obsessed with violence, etc.

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Originally Posted by izlat

Bruno is right too, though: he might have been picked on. Yes, we all might be driven to kill. But it must be quite a thing to get you like that if you are normal?

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It seems the gunner has a history of mental disturbance. That said, we must be careful with the word “normal.” Hitler may have been nuts, but he couldn’t have done it without “normal” people. Most people lobbing off arms in Sierra Leone would be “normal” under different circumstances. The same is likely true of the soldiers responsible for the My Lai massacre. We like to write off people who commit atrocities as “flukes” and call them crazy, that one bad apple in a million good ones. It makes it easier for the rest of us to deal with it. But is it really true?

-Michael

I feel extremely sorry for the friends and families of the victims. But I think spending time trying to pin what happened on the school and authorities is a cop out. This kid's problems should have been addressed by his family and friends long before he got to the point where he flipped out.

When I was a kid there was a universal expectation that I would conform to societies rules and that I should be "ashamed" and expect to be "disciplined" if I didn't. I was taught the rules and disciplined for breaking them by virtually everyone... my parents, relatives, teachers, neighbors, storekeepers, and virtually any adult that saw me violate the expected rules of conduct.

Now. before you get on a soapbox about how "beating a kid never solved anything", forget it. I'm not talking about whipping kids. I'm talking about adults feeling responsible to take action. I'm talking about parents, teachers, ministers, friends, neighbors, shopkeepers, etc. taking the time to take some action which helped teach me right from wrong... taking the time to demand and teach me respect, taking the time to care about me as much as they cared about themselves and their own kids. And most of all, taking the time to feel that they were responsible to help make society work. They didn't stand around and wait for my parents or the authorities to catch me throwing rocks or beating up the neighbor kid or anything else... they took immediate hands-on action and then told my parents to make sure I'd get another dose of discipline when I got home. Nobody called the cops. Nobody was concerned that they'd embarrass me. Nobody sued anybody for calling me an idiot or a moron when I did something wrong or illegal or got my a$$ hammered at school for breaking the rules. And I don't recall a single case of a kid being "abused" in this process. The net effect for all us kids back then was that we learned respect for others, we felt responsible for our actions, and differences of opinion were usually resolved without anyone doing anything really offensive.

When I was a kid everyone I knew had guns. At the age of 12 I could buy ammunition and dynamite at the local hardware store. Most boys carried a penknife. There were no "written" rules of conduct at school.. we all knew what was expected because our parents and teachers told us and we knew we better conform or else. I watched hundreds of cowboys and gangsters get shot every week on TV... mysteriously I, nor anyone I knew, ever shot, knifed, or blew up anyone. Kids who refused to live by the rules and be responsible for their own actions were sent to reform schools, military schools, etc.

IMHO, the USA has indeed become a populace of, as Kriton said, "sheeple"... everyone waiting for someone else to take action. And when something goes wrong, we've become a society that looks immediately for someone to blame... I say look in the mirror.:shrug:

As far as fighting back, I'll echo what one of my professors said: "We never know what we'll do when something like that happens. I would like to think that I would stay behind, blocking the doors so the class could escape. But then again, I might just push you out of the way and escape myself. You never know how you'll react until it happens" He's a great guy, and I have no doubt about which option he'd take.

The problem with a lot of college students is that they don't know how to react to things logically. The people that barricaded the door did just fine, yet others didn't. Maybe some people didn't get the chance to fight back, we'll never know. I pray that nothing like that happens here so that I can find out what I'm made of.

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Originally Posted by ohlookaneagle

...And maybe they did try something. Maybe a few of those students who were gunned down were gunned down running towards the gunner, instead of away. Maybe many of them.

...-Michael

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From the Fox News Site, listing of the massacre victims:

Liviu Librescu
Librescu, 76, a Holocaust survivor and an Israeli lecturer in mathematics and engineering science and mechanics, was born in Romania and was known internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering. He had taught at Virginia Tech for more than 20 years, joining the faculty in 1985.
"His research has enabled better aircraft, superior composite materials and more robust aerospace structures," said Ishwar K. Puri, the head of the engineering science and mechanics department.


Video: Click here to hear more about Liviu Librescu's heroic efforts

[NOTE: Clicking this link will take you to the Fox News page - click this same link on that page (it's about half way down the page) to open the video clip - you might have to disable Norton Internet Security to view any clips - Lou]

Librescu's son, Joe, said his father's students sent e-mails detailing how the professor saved their lives by guarding the doorway of his classroom from the approaching gunman before he was fatally shot.
"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu said Tuesday in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv, Israel. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."

He was a holocaust survivor - he's seen more evil than I can even comprehend.

He was a hero.

I mourn them all.

-Lou