Mans Intelligence

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Originally Posted by xman

Sure, I'll bite.
I'm almost totally on side with this. My only addendum would be that government should not necessarily be small, just moved out of our way. If we're really going to make government support what it means to be human for all the excitement and foible that it is, it needs to do a slightly different job and exalt those who are down. We all benefit from having a strong society.

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I agree wholeheartedly. For society to be strong and stable, government needs to insure that people never reach the desparate stage where they become a burden or a threat to society. This is not just the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, but it also makes economic sense.

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Originally Posted by xman

A quick example: here in Vancouver, BC they cut funding to mental health institutes and we ended up with ballooning already massive homeless and addiction problems costing more in resources to deal with than if we had just kept the hospitals going. :gth Thankfully the data is coming in on balancing the budget and, still being so close to the former situation, even the hawks are taking note. Education is another, perhaps the most important, aspect where government should play a large role IMO. Let scholastic merit alone and not wealth be the determining factor of who gets to go to the best schools. The list could go on. I guess what I'm saying is that because our governments are in our way doesn't mean we should make them smaller. I believe that if we do that, some other entity, be it a warlord culture, a corporate one or something else, will simply take its place. I agree with making government work for the people rather than vice versa.

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I think you and I agree, is that correct? (though maybe you are less cynic about human nature than I am)

Btw, this reminds me of that scene in 'the Gladiator' where senator whatsisname is accused of not being one of the people. His reply: 'I want to be a man for the people, not of the people.'

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Justin,

I think I understand what you're saying. I agree with the idea of personal freedom and choice - it would be interesting to see what would happen (governmentally, I mean) if that principle was allowed a natural development. Actually, and I'm not trying to deliberately be a pratt here, I think there are some (or maybe a lot of) philosophical texts that deal with this - the French guy Michel Foucault did some interesting stuff on power that's probably pertinent.

But I wonder whether anything along those lines can happen with a democratically elected government - invariably people differ in views and attitudes, and if you're on the losing side in an election, democracy means you have to live with other people's ideas about how you're governed...is that too simplistic???:shrug:

James.

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Thanks James and X, I know there is no perfect system -- even though I do believe all of what I wrote, I was trying to present a side that might open up more conversation. However, I can only try to judge the worth of a system from my persective --- there is a threshold that exists were regulation starts to infringe on and blunt the human experience and where these regulations that are suppose to protect the human make life not worth living by destroying what it means to be a free thinking, living, crying,laughing, dying human -- what it means to be a human -- what's the point --- except to sustain society for society's sake, just like a busy little bee trying to maintain the hive --- trying to perpetuate and protect humankind when the individuals don't know what it means to really be a human --- :gth .

Justin

Out of a sows ear one can not produce a silk purse!
All the stupid things that you mention that people do, Bruno, were done under one form of government or another. If the people are good, intelligent people you will get good, intelligent government, but then you wouldn't need a large government, only a small one with limited scope! With stupid unintelligent people (as you assume most are Bruno) you get a large, cumbersome, unintelligent and often cruel government, who believe only they know whats best for you. The latter government I described grew directly out of thoughtless, unintelligent people, how could that government be any different?

If one person can be self regulating then all people can be self regulating! It has to be expected of each of us so that it can come to fruition instead of assuming we are to stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time!

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Ok then.

EDIT: Originally I wrote about why I want to bring specific things like healthcare / army / transportation / energy and environment under governmental control, but it was too much text and I think the following explains it better.

Most people who participated here already seem to think that tiny governments are best, and that most things should be managed by the people themselves.
this only works if 'The People' are responsible enough to do that.
But 'The People' usually aren't. Generally 'The People' are stupid, uninformed, gullible, greedy and small-minded.

This is true everywhere. I try to see things from all sides and act responsibly. But most people I see in daily life don't.
Responsible people would not drink and drive. Responsible people would not leave their baby unattended in the same room with a pitbull. Responsible people would buckle up their children in the car. Responsible people would not need to be told that an accusation of child molesting is not enough to execute someone on the spot...

It is a good thing that 'The People' are not wielding the actual power because it would end in mob rule.
Government officials are also people who are prone to the same problems, but with everything they do they live with the knowledge that we can strip them from their powers come next election day. (slightly off-topic, but this is another reason I like our multiparty system)

I don't think my government is ideal, and I don't think that corruption doesn't happen, but I prefer anything above direct rule by 'The People'.

If I come over as a cynic... It's because I am.
I strive to live responsibly, and I do my very best to raise my children responsibly, but until I can start believing that 'The People' can act responsibly as a group, I'll hold on to the government.

I've met 'The People' on several occasions and I did not like what I saw.

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You don't get mob rule when people act like free thinking individuals ----you get mob rule when people act like sheep ----- "the people" as you define it is just as applicable to a goverment out of wack --- it might not be as recognizable or in your face as a group of civilian with torches (ak- 47's, whatever) who are out of control and causing immediate damages but it can be devestating in more of a long term and insidious sense. The greatest attrocities have not been caused by an individual or groups of free thinking individuals but by people willing to follow goverments that are supposedly doing things for their own good --- how many people died as a result of following a Nazi collective thought or how many millions died in the Soviet take over of Russia in some attempt to create a workers party utopia? Individuals do not cause such attrocities --only people who are willing to follow and be regulated in the hopes of something better. I trust individuals --- I don't trust groups --even when they take the form of a well intentioned government --- I accept that the world will never be perfect and humans have a bad side and I am willing to live with the poblems that are a result of it --- but you can keep your big governments as I don't see how one can not have faith in an individual because of his supposed lackings but is willing to give faith to a government made up of such individuals who ultimately will work off of a mob rule and teach a group think attitude ---- I'd rather die than be neutered and labatomized even for such holy things as altruism and social welfare.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

You don't get mob rule when people act like free thinking individuals ----you get mob rule when people act like sheep ----- "the people" as you define it is just as applicable to a goverment out of wack --- it might not be as recognizable or in your face as a group of civilian with torches (ak- 47's, whatever) who are out of control and causing immediate damages but it can be devestating in more of a long term and insidious sense. The greatest attrocities have not been caused by an individual or groups of free thinking individuals but by people willing to follow goverments that are supposedly doing things for their own good --- how many people died as a result of following a Nazi collective thought or how many millions died in the Soviet take over of Russia in some attempt to create a workers party utopia? Individuals do not cause such attrocities --only people who are willing to follow and be regulated in the hopes of something better. I trust individuals --- I don't trust groups --even when they take the form of a well intentioned government --- I accept that the world will never be perfect and humans have a bad side and I am willing to live with the poblems that are a result of it --- but you can keep your big governments as I don't see how one can not have faith in an individual because of his supposed lackings but is willing to give faith to a government made up of such individuals who ultimately will work off of a mob rule and teach a group think attitude ---- I'd rather die than be neutered and labatomized even for such holy things as altruism and social welfare.

Justin

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My brother from another mother!:tu

Without law and government, who would uphold the rules?
Take for example pollution. People in charge of industrial plants would love nothing more than to throw their waste where it won't bother them in the short term.
Or traffic laws. If government hadn't made seatbelts (and using them) mandatory, then there would be more dead in traffic.
And the US has a gigantic stockpile of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. you don't want them to be in private hands either.

Sometime ago, someone in Belgium was arrested on charges of child molestation. You would not believe how many people said things to the effect of 'why spend all the money on a court case when it only has to cost a dollar' and things to that effect. And these things are said by 'The People' whom I should trust to be responsible. 'The People' also includes al qaeda, neo nazis, the KKK, religious fundamentalists ...

There are dozens of examples I could make.
I agree with you that in a perfect world there would be no need for large governments and everything that come with them, but the world isn't perfect.
You I trust to think about things, and several others here as well.

The ideas of having a small government and letting people figure it out for themselves sounds nice, but as soon as you start taking care of all the practical details that involve law enforcement, military, taxes, energy, ... you will be left with something very similar to what you have now: a big government.

But I still like you. :tu

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Originally Posted by JMS

My brother from another mother!:tu

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Well Mark if it gets bad enough we can do that "Thelma and Louise" thing and hold hands as we drive our car off the mountain cliff. :D (well maybe not hold hands)


Justin

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Well Mark if it gets bad enough we can do that "Thelma and Louise" thing and hold hands as whe drive our car off the mountain cliff. :D (well maybe not hold hands)


Justin

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:roflmaoLets not and say we did.:roflmao

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Originally Posted by jaegerhund

I trust individuals --- I don't trust groups --even when they take the form of a well intentioned government --- I accept that the world will never be perfect and humans have a bad side and I am willing to live with the poblems that are a result of it --- but you can keep your big governments as I don't see how one can not have faith in an individual because of his supposed lackings but is willing to give faith to a government made up of such individuals who ultimately will work off of a mob rule and teach a group think attitude ---- I'd rather die than be neutered and labatomized even for such holy things as altruism and social welfare.

Justin

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I trust individuals as well. there are several people I trust with my children, and that is the highest level there is for me.
But there are far more individuals whom I don't trust at all. The majority really.

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Originally Posted by JMS

:roflmaoLets not and say we did.:roflmao

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Yep -- while yelling "Give me liberty or give me death" --- maybe half way to the ground liberty might not seem so important though ---- but boy what a way to go.

Jusitn