Are we taking honing too Seriously ?????

I just read another post here, that stated that you really do need a microscope to really learn how to hone correctly.....
I'll be honest here and state that, yes I do keep a 40x loupe in my razor drawer, and I probably will get one one those cool QX microscopes, that BT was taking about....

But I am beginning to think that we might be taking the whole honing/sharp razor, issue way to seriously on here.... Yes I like chasing perfection too, but seriously guys, I really can't see every Tom, Dick, and Harry, even as late as the 1950's checking their razor with a microscope, or even a loupe, and definitely before that, I would say that having more than a strop and one small barbers hone, would be in the "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous"
Those of us here that take this way to seriously, myself included, might be unconsciously hurting an art that just now is on a comeback... we are basically saying that unless you have a honing setup of a minimum of 4 stones at least 2 strops and a microscope, you are not getting the perfect edge... While that statement might be truthful, it is by no means limiting, We need to make sure that everyone knows that you can shave for years to come with your trusty barbers hone, and a strop and get a perfectly serviceable shave just like Pop's and Grandpop's did for years before us...
Please understand that this is a discussion, I am by no means saying anybody is wrong or right here, it was just a simple thought that rambled through my head after reading the same statement again today about a microscope...

What say you?????

I say I've seen plenty of statements in microscope-centered threads claiming great shaves from razors that look far from perfect under a scope. I haven't actually seen anyone yet claim that they use the scope to see if their blade is sharp, so even though I'm impressionable by experienced blade sharpeners I haven't been led to believe I need a microscope.

I can also say though that my blade was giving me a trouble spot a couple of weeks ago, and it was by using magnification that I found a chip in the blade. Maybe I could have discovered it by running the blade on my fingernail, and maybe the nick wasn't what was giving me the trouble, but it was quite interesting to see the blade and its imperfections up close.

Not essential, but interesting and helpful!

I have a coticule. I didn't even know what a coticule was before I started looking into straight shaving and even then until I bought one I didn't do enough research into what it was.

I get a good edge off it, it's not a honemeister's edge, but it's a good edge I can shave happily with. Do I need more? no. Do I need a microscope? no. Could I learn to use the coticule better? yep for sure, I'm always learning and hope I do learn more.

As per the tone of your post - one has to wonder what perfection is, and when "good" is simply good. I shaved yesterday with my newly self honed razor, and I got the best shave I've gotten thus far from my straight.

My last girlfriend made a very interesting observation, she said she wanted things to be "nice", not just nice, or super, nice. I put a lot of thought into this point she made and came to the conclusion that nice was really what mattered, not perfection, not huge amazing crazy stuff(which incidently is fun sometimes), nice. Struck a chord.

To some extent, I think this gets back to whether you are talking about maintaining a sharp razor or bringing a dead razor back to life. In the past, before the "throw away" culture, most towns had professionals who sharpened things for people regularly. So, I don't think your average straight shaver - or barber for that matter - was sharpening dull razors the way some of us do. They were mainly maintaining a sharp blade and maybe bringing it to their local pro from time to time. For some, this is a hobby and not just about the practicalities of shaving. And, its fun to play with toys. :)

Jordan

I see the scope as an aid to learning. No, you don't have to have it, but it can definitely help you shorten the learning curve. Back when everyone used these, there was likely to be someone in town that could show you how to do it. We've got words and a few pictures to go by- and we're lucky for that!

Maybe we do take it too seriously, but it's among the cheaper hobbies to take too seriously:roflmao

As a relative newcomer to straights (1 month) I can say I was a little overwhelmed by all the stones, strops and methods. Having acquired a nice little case of RAD, I now have 4 razors (all from ebay in various condition but all under $15 ea. - 2 Bokers, a W&B and a Genco). I use 2000 grit sandpaper on glass and an old Montgomery Wards combo stone I got from my dad years back; I flattened and refreshed it on sandpaper/glass and find it provides a serviceable, if not perfect, edge. I'm planning to make my own strop at some point in the near future but for the time being I use a newspaper for 150-200 strops and get a pretty nice shave - after 2 passes I can say it's about as close as my DE gave me. I guess the point is that you can get a decent edge using simple tools. I plan to take it to the next level with a coticule and pasted strop in another payday or two but for the time being I'm enjoying my new hobby with minimal investment.

I've been honing and checking....., then honing and checking....

nope, not quite there yet....hone, hone, hone.....

dial up the magnification....hmmm, what is that slight imperfection I see!? Back to the 4000....Hone, hone hone....on to the 8000, hone, hone, hone...

150 laps on the 3micron paste, followed by 226 laps on the 1 micron pasted hanger.


I think I'm almost there!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/sunart/RAZORWOOD4.jpg

Pretty soon, I'll need a microscope to see my razor!

I agree with you ggsixgun! although I am certain that a microscope can teach you a thing or two so can doing by eye and feel! I was a baker for 20 years and many that I worked with considered me one of the better bakers in the U S A. when you mix dough and add ingredients certain things happen, all of which can be seen through a microscope, which I never used, in fact no baker worth his salt uses a microscope because the same information can be gathered through your senses!
To have a deep understanding about exactly what is going on, a microscope can help but for practical every day honing, touch and feel and a set of good eyes should suffice!

I have just been honing for a few months, and have realized that the desire to learn to hone is what truly fuels RAD ;) unless you do it for other people, or you constantly break down the edge you made the day before until the thing is toast. It just takes practice and experience, which many people here, like you Glen, already have. Then the additional benefit of using a microscope may be debatable. But for someone still on the steep upward slope, anything that can aid in possibly shortening the learning curve, and demystifying the art would be welcome.

Another point is that all of the honing tests are subjective - TPT etc. The picture under the microscope is objective, can be standardized, is repeatable, and most people can relate to it. That being said, I still am trying to come to grips with correlating what I see under my $10 RS scope and what I feel on my face.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

I've been honing and checking....., then honing and checking....

nope, not quite there yet....hone, hone, hone.....

dial up the magnification....hmmm, what is that slight imperfection I see!? Back to the 4000....Hone, hone hone....on to the 8000, hone, hone, hone...

150 laps on the 3micron paste, followed by 226 laps on the 1 micron pasted hanger.


I think I'm almost there!

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/sunart/RAZORWOOD4.jpg

Pretty soon, I'll need a microscope to see my razor!

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:roflmao :roflmao
I needed that today!

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

Pretty soon, I'll need a microscope to see my razor!

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Groove the blade and your wife has a nice looking, quality nail file!

Glen, I am looking forward to a good conversation with you in person in Asheville!

I was explaining my straight shaving hobby to someone the other day and I said that it was like fly fishing. Some people like to CATCH fish, some just like perfecting their cast, some like to tie flys more. The point is, zen can be found in many facets of the one activity. It is so, I believe, with straight shaving. Shave-vana can be reached many ways. Honing, Shaving, Restoring, stropping, are all different aspects that we as a community embrace with varying degrees of zeal. A sensitivity to new comers with respect to that zeal is probably something we should seek to maintain so as not to scare folks off who are unsure or would otherwise be intimidated. I think the community here does a good job of answering questions honestly and with said sensitivity. As for the science/art of honing, I have not ventured down that path yet, so I must defer to those who know more. :bow

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Originally Posted by Quick Orange

I see the scope as an aid to learning. No, you don't have to have it, but it can definitely help you shorten the learning curve. Back when everyone used these, there was likely to be someone in town that could show you how to do it. We've got words and a few pictures to go by- and we're lucky for that!

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I think this is the difference right here. I learned to hone from Lynn's video and the advice here on the board. With the micro I shortened my learning curve enough to be successful. I in fact still haven't met any of you guys in person nor even another straight shaver I could compare notes with. Any tool that helps is what I say.

Just today I was in my shop looking at a razor, It has probably never seen a hone yet after thirty years it is showing enough wear and tear that if it was advertised as new in a store I would take it back. Even nearly new stock like this has more damage than would be acceptable to even the most laid back consumer. If I couldn't look at it and see where it was and how it was coming I would easily become frustrated in the precess and give up before the blade is restored. I don't need to look at it anymore but it now give me peace of mind and a sense of progress to do so.

Ahhh, the great microscope debate of '08.
Here's my view. While I do see the merit of being able to see the edge close up, and understand that this should be useful to pretty much everyone learning to hone, I am against it.
At least part of the reason I started shaving with a straight was nostalgia. To do things the old fashioned way. To shave like my grandfather and many older generations have done for centuries. When learning to hone, I want to do the same. I don't wish to let modern technology interfere with my nostalgia trip, as useful as it may be. And so, I have thus far refused to use a scope to see the edge of my razors, when honing. Hopefully, in this way, I should learn to use the various subjective tests more quickly without relying on a microscope first. I MUST learn to use these tests in order to learn how to hone properly, because I have no microscope to tell me what's happening. Just like they didn't use a microscope to sharpen razors a hundred years ago. But maybe that's just me.

Connor

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Originally Posted by Rosco

Ahhh, the great microscope debate of '08.
Here's my view. While I do see the merit of being able to see the edge close up, and understand that this should be useful to pretty much everyone learning to hone, I am against it.
At least part of the reason I started shaving with a straight was nostalgia. To do things the old fashioned way. To shave like my grandfather and many older generations have done for centuries. When learning to hone, I want to do the same. I don't wish to let modern technology interfere with my nostalgia trip, as useful as it may be. And so, I have thus far refused to use a scope to see the edge of my razors, when honing. Hopefully, in this way, I should learn to use the various subjective tests more quickly without relying on a microscope first. I MUST learn to use these tests in order to learn how to hone properly, because I have no microscope to tell me what's happening. Just like they didn't use a microscope to sharpen razors a hundred years ago. But maybe that's just me.

Connor

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Nope, it not just you!:D

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Originally Posted by Rosco

I don't wish to let modern technology interfere with my nostalgia trip, as useful as it may be. And so, I have thus far refused to use a scope to see the edge of my razors, when honing. Hopefully, in this way, I should learn to use the various subjective tests more quickly without relying on a microscope first. I MUST learn to use these tests in order to learn how to hone properly, because I have no microscope to tell me what's happening. Just like they didn't use a microscope to sharpen razors a hundred years ago. But maybe that's just me.

Connor

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I just have to point out that microscopes are hundreds of years old. I know they weren't as common or as advanced in years past, but bending light to see things up close is not really a modern interference (not to me at least!) I do use a modern interference for kicks though.

I enjoy the debates about honing and various methods as long as no one gets offended; Not everyone uses a pyramid, not everyone uses a progressive method, not everyone uses a microscope or double-bevel.

Personally I think it adds to our hobby when others are willing to experiment and pursue the more esoteric parts of razor honing.

At the get-together a couple of weeks ago, HeavyDuty was telling me about how he did an experiment with a couticle to see if it was possible to overhone. I believe he ended up doing several hundred strokes without overhoning. I remember thinking...'how cool.'


Keep it up guys...

If you have a microscope then it could certainly be used to your advantage, but I do not think is it necessary by any means.

Personally I have honed enough razors at this point to understand when a blade is shave ready.

I will do the TPT, and cut some hair on my arm to get a FEEL for the edge. A razor that is ALMOST READY will cut hair differently than a razor that is READY (when cutting hair on my arm).

Now if I had a microscope I could look at the edge and notice the difference between a blade that is almost shave ready vs a blade that is shave ready vs a blade that is a letter opener. But I do not necessarily need a scope to tell me the differences.

I guess I am just a touchy feely person when it comes to honing :)

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Originally Posted by Amyn

[...]
I guess I am just a touchy feely person when it comes to honing :)

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I'm buying you band-aids, super glue, and duct tape for christmas. :)

You need nothing more than a hone in order to hone.
In the beginning I only used a coticule because that was what I had.

I even took out a big nick on it, which took 15 hours or so.

In the beginning I also used a microscope, simply because I had one available at work, and it showed me a lot of things. But it only sped up the learning curve a bit. And these days I use things like the flow of water on the stone, the reflection of light on the edge, the tnt and tpt.

The reason I take honing more seriously is to me it is a hobby on which I spend a lot of time and effort. if I only wanted to get a decent shave, I'd have stopped after my first coticule.

Btw, that is the advice I give every newbie: if you just want to maintain a razor that already has a decent edge: buy a small coticule and touch up your razor every couple of shaves.

I've never used a microscope - don't even own anything that magnifies. Personally I take the "ignorance is bliss" attitude to minute examination of my edges. I have fairly good eyes and can generally see if there's something up by varying the angle of the light along the bevel. And the edge tests and shaving have always, without fail, told me how the edge is.

But having said that, I can see how some magnification could be useful - not only for learning, but also for examining scratch patterns, particularly when comparing hones of unknown grit to those of known grit. In fact, my FIL is going to give me one of his microscopes for the latter purpose. So maybe that means my previous attitude toward magnification is just me being cheap!

Anyway, my take on it is the ends justify the means - do whatever you need to do to get a good shaving edge. Some people magnify, some don't. There's no right or wrong. We all want to blow up the Death Star - some of us need the targeting computer, others use the force! :D

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

We all want to blow up the Death Star - some of us need the targeting computer, others use the force! :D

James.

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Yes, but even those who use the force wield high-tech light sabers!

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Yes, but even those who use the force wield high-tech light sabers!

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True, very true.

James.

I'll say this much. I started with a king combo stone and eventually added a strop consisting of green chrome paste on scrap leather. A plain square of scrap leather is my everyday strop. That's been my set-up for the past year.

I sprung for a chinese 12k stone from woodcraft and thus far I feel that I've wasted my money for what I got. Maybe time and experience will change my mind on this particular item, but for the most part I value simplicity. As long as my razor shaves me close and doesn't pull or tug, I'm a happy camper.

I have a higher quality glass 10x loupe and I was convinced I needed something more sophisticated so I bought a stereo microscope (20x & 40x with nice wide angle and 40x&80x with the irritating tiny field of view that I don't like). I will say it does help me to identify micro-chips and view scratch pattern progress, but....

I have mixed feelings about magnification, and my opinion has evolved now that I do have a microscope; I use it, not all the time and admittedly if I DIDN'T have it I'd probably want it, but that said, I certainly don't think it's critical for honing and clearly such a statement if made, IMO would be inaccurate at best.

I agree that we can overcomplicate. I'm for advocating starting out with a minimalist approach, gaining knowledge and experience and working upward if need be rather than advocating that members new to honing drop a chunk of change on a microscope along with their Norton 4000/8000 or equivalent before they even start to hone.

Chris L

I kind of agree. I think the main purpose of a microscope is to bypass the time it takes to learn to assess an edge by feel.

I think a big part of the past that we miss is the small bit of training that came with the razor from someone, the time they took to shave, the very low frequency of times per week they used it, and the reliance for many decades on a professional to do the task.

I find, and am open to being wrong because I know others feel differently, that straight shaving was never really something that "everybody" did. One of the big comments that you hear and read about is how the safety razor suddenly got everyone shaving nearly everyday, whereas I've always assumed, that not everyone did it prior to that. I think a lot of guys just went to a barber for a shave 2 days a week.

A lot of guys sort of assume that every guy effortlessly used a straight razor and thought nothing of it, despite lots of documentation that proves otherwise.

You and I probably find honing and shaving pretty simple stuff now considering the razors we have, and using a microscope isn't needed at all.

The other issue that seems to rattle me, probably more then it should, is the defined discipline involved in studying the art of barbering and shaving. When I teach classes in honing I'm often baffled by the looks and comments that often run along like "Why, why, why, why an X pattern? Can't I just go straight down the hone? Why do the strokes have to be sooooooooo even on eaaaaaaach side? Why, why, why? Why? Can't I just do it anyway I waaaaaaaaant? Why? Why? Why? Why all this angle discipline? Why? Why? Why? . . .

and me "for the love of God, just look at the edge in the microscope" followed by:

"Oh" . . .

In every area of interest or hobby you can spend big dollars on all kinds of paraphanelia. Most of the stuff people buy are entirely unnecessary but its like the guy who has cabinets full of high dollar tools he never uses and goes out and wipes em down every now and then.

I have a stereo microscope but I didn't buy it for razor work I had it eons before in my rockhounding days. I don't think I have used it 5 times for honing. I have a handlens I use for honing but I rarely use it. Its only when I am having trouble that I will dig it out and check the edge to see what's happening. I think its best to learn to do it all yourself and then you can use the aids for convenience. Its like the guy who learns how to fly and depends on his auto pilot and GPS to do it all and then something unexpected happens and he's lost the ability to really fly the plane and you hear about him on the news.

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Originally Posted by richardhead

At the get-together a couple of weeks ago, HeavyDuty was telling me about how he did an experiment with a couticle to see if it was possible to overhone. I believe he ended up doing several hundred strokes without overhoning. I remember thinking...'how cool.'


Keep it up guys...

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Actually it was well over a thousand on the yellow coticule after the razor was already shave ready :)

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Originally Posted by RayG

Another point is that all of the honing tests are subjective - TPT etc. The picture under the microscope is objective, can be standardized, is repeatable, and most people can relate to it. That being said, I still am trying to come to grips with correlating what I see under my $10 RS scope and what I feel on my face.

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I don't agree with this. For me the sharpness tests are just as objective as what I see under the microscope, if not more so. There is definately a right and a wrong way to perform the tests and interpret the results that can be learned by anyone with proper instruction and practice.

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

I don't agree with this. For me the sharpness tests are just as objective as what I see under the microscope, if not more so. There is definately a right and a wrong way to perform the tests and interpret the results that can be learned by anyone with practice.

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...I agree!!

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Originally Posted by heavydutysg135

There is definately a right and a wrong way to perform the tests and interpret the results that can be learned by anyone with proper instruction and practice.

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I agree as well, though I can see how it can be considered subjective. My point of view for a while was that it was subjective, then I performed the tests on razors of optimal sharpness and found out what passing the test really meant. Hasn't steered me wrong yet.

I do everything by touch and observation. Each razor has it's own feel on the hone, if you listen to your hone, it can tell you when a razor is sharp, watch the way the water flows, feel the edge...
I have a 30X loupe, I use it on occasion, if I'm having trouble with a razor, or suspect a microbevel or something.
For my every day honing, I go by the feel of the edge, the way the light reflects off the edge, and the way it slides across my hones.
Our senses can be fine tuned as well as any instrument, and the most important aspect of this is how well it shaves. I don't know if I removed all of the scratches from the 4k, nor do I really care as long as it provides me with a good lasting edge.

I like the edges I am getting, If I look at them through a microscope, I'm not sure what i'll see, or if i'll like it... Sometimes perfection is not a good goal.