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Originally Posted by davisbonanza
There are a number of great documentaries that cover all this, and it's truly sad. Why can't the government be open and clear about it? Why can't they admit that their list of terrorists was a complete fabrication (many of the men were in known locations around the world at the time). It's just something that feels goofy, and the government isn't doing anything to make it feel any less so.
Hi Dave,
I don't have the answers to all your questions, and honestly I doubt anyone does. It is like trying to answer a grieving loved one wanting to know "Why did he/she have to die?!". There IS no answer. Hindsight is also 20/20 in this case.
I suspect these people were already being tracked, but the message about how serious they were or when the attack would occur did not get through to the right authorities for various reasons, including, likely, unwillingness to trust military and other intelligence types warning about this particular plot. It's only wiki, but for an interesting start try this.Quote:
Originally Posted by davisbonanza
Do you really want the answers to these questions? Honestly I don't believe the 9/11 commission had anything to do with demands from families so much as a desire to make political gain from the loss of others by trying to pin what happened on the current administration, and its political party. It is likely that there are many things they still do not know, and no amount of demanding from people will get them the answers they want. However, if an official report were to find blame with someone, regardless of how much or whether it was true, then attorneys and others could demand millions and millions in reparations for survivors and more importantly their lawyers (sorry in advance to any lawyers here-I just see a massive opportunity for someone to make a buck, and imagine quite a few would).Quote:
Originally Posted by davisbonanza
The 9/11 commission may or may not have found out the truth so much as being a mechanism for political grandstanding and an opportunity to pass blame around without much real knowledge of what happened, other than it was the other party's fault, no doubt they are to blame! There, I said it. I don't really think the 9/11 commission was anything more than a witch hunt.
I'm a little vague on this and it may have something to do with Presidential privilege or something, (again I'm rusty on the subject) but my take on it is that there are three branches of the U.S. government. The Presidency is one, Congress is another, and the Courts are another. There are checks and balances; while they all have quite a bit of power, if one branch were able to counter another simply by demanding something, then such would negate the system of checks and balances. I'm sure it comes down to one of these. Possibly other issues also, but ultimately neither the President, Congress, nor the Courts is supposed to rule over the other branches. Having trouble putting into words what I'm thinking here, but hopefully you see a bit where i'm going with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by davisbonanza
Haven't heard of this; nor have I heard anything saying the firefighters rushing into the WTC contacted the EPA prior to going in. Disaster workers after the fact were exposed to all sorts of things that wouldn't be in the same environment as a typical air sample taken from wherever in the city the sensors are. Firefighters still wear respirators so do people working in dust filled environments, even in cities with the cleanest of air. It is all a tragedy, and I think the mistake here many make is thinking the government has the answers if we do not. I do not believe they know all the answers either, and, to be honest, just because we elect someone, doesn't mean the following day they are privy to any more than the day prior.Quote:
Originally Posted by davisbonanza
Ultimately I doubt there will be any real answers for you. People in the government do not like to say they don't know, when people demand answers. However, sometimes, they don't know. It is also too late to say "You should have listened to the SF types about these guys" or "so and so SAID they were going to do this" when no one at the time believed how soon it would happen, and ultimately, it is difficult to explain to a populace that is angry and waving its fists that reality is harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by davisbonanza
Without good information (PRIOR to the attack) there was no way to know when or how or who, or even IF the attack would have happened.
You think there's uproar now, imagine people demanding to know why their loved ones were illegally blasted out of the sky because the plane was off course, or because it was hijacked-why it was shot down without knowing the purpose of the hijackers.
It's a lose-lose situation. Perhaps the fourth was shot down, I don't know, but there was simply no way to know in time to save those people. We weren't at war at the time (so far as WE knew), nor were were under threat of immediate air attack, no fighters were circling every major city or sitting on APU waiting to scramble. Likely, had a CO had his squadron doing such things he would have been drummed out for wasting fuel (YES, the US Military has to pay for its fuel, also).
Perhaps not the answers you and others are looking for, but I have a feeling I'm close to the truth.
John P.
Here's the summary from /.
Of course as a theory it is totally un-sexy and uninspiring, so no doubt the conspiracy nuts will still blame the illuminati, the government, aliens or Elvis.
After all, science is just numbers, and far too boring to dispell the notion of a conspiracy. Especially since most of the people don't understand or even mistrust advanced math, whereas blaming the government can always meet with 'aye's.
Full NIST report can be found here.
NIST WTC 7 Investigation Finds Building Fires Caused Collapse, 08/21/08
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The main conclusion is that the building came down due to fire, not due to debris damage or some conspiracy demolition team. The fire started pretty small after the collapse of WTC 1, but was left to burn several floors out completely. The important finding is that the collapse was triggered by thermal expansion of beams, which could detach asymmetrically loaded girders from the main columns. Some limited pancaking of floors then caused a lack of lateral support and buckling of a single column. This triggered the failure of the entire core of the building, which finally fell down as a single piece.
Wonderful find. We can bring these horses to water....Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
I can't believe all the mis-information on this topic.
Truth is... BigFoot did it.:roflmao
So it was the left wing tree huggers?Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjeff2
I'm NOT one for conspiracy theories which is exactly why I don't believe the official story coming from the US feds. It reeks of disinformation. The reason the American people will never be given the answers they look for is because that would implicate too many powerful people. 911 was clearly an inside job. That doesn't mean that some branch or branches of the government are responsible. Powerful individuals, who have the reigns in several key positions throughout the structures of government pulled off a modern Crystal Nacht. How it all fits together with the Saudis is and will always remain a mystery.
I despise this time of year when the gullible get their day of mourning to remember why they need to kill foreigners dubbed with the name of terrorist and support the military-industrial complex despite the warning of Dwight D. Eisenhower in his farewell address to the nation in 1961: "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." I shudder to think of the callousness men of power display and the disregard the have for ordinary people.
The official line is that the destruction of WTC was intended by the terrorists to send a blow of epic proportion through the American economy when the truth is that the destruction of those three buildings specifically prevented such a disaster. Within WTC were the records of the Enron scandal which coupled with the real estate fiascoes of the earliest years of this century, would have sent America into a mighty depression. The towers themselves were multi-billion dollar lemons which would have iced the cake.
911=JFK
Couldn't have happened the way they say.
X
PS where's Bin Laden ... STILL!
Has anyone checked under Xmans cape?:hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by xman
X...
So...I wonder, based on your post, what you think Pres. Eisenhower would have thought about the government-media/education complex...????
We've been so busy watching one hand, full of distrust, while the other is blatantly in our pockets, controlling what we think (instead of teaching us how to think) and even who we are supposed to vote for based on the type, and amount, of coverage one individual or his platform receives.
I feel the military and even the industries that support it garner far too much distrust by certain members of the public. The industries and military had perhaps a lot bigger capability to control fear etc. in 1961, what with a Red Army soldier around every corner, and schoolchildren diving under desks in perhaps useless gestures to avoid annihilation by Soviet nuclear weapons. Times have changed, and they changed quite awhile ago.
With the cold war arms race, and a state of constant build up, military industries had huge political power; after all, we can't let the Soviets beat us to the biggest nuclear weapon, fastest jet, quietest submarine, etc. etc. and politicians knew this. Contrast with now, when military industries are struggling to survive, with the exception of a slight few-others go under, are bought by competitors, and jobs hang in the balance of a single contract. Air Force bought the other guy's airplane? Guess you're out of a job and your stock just tanked. Sorry. So much for military industrial complexes and their "power".
The biggest thing I believe possibly happens is high ranking officers close to retirement desperately looking for jobs with these companies. I could see some possibly being tempted to favor those companies just prior to retirement from the armed forces, or pulling old strings from when they were serving to get contracts. Not quite honest, but I suspect it happens. Still officers padding their future job opportunities or companies recruiting high ranking officers hoping to help gain contracts (and therefore keep their jobs is a far cry from exerting control over the populace.
HUGE difference from when Pres. Eisenhower made that statement. Contrast that with the enormous power the media now has, and indeed celebrities seem these days to believe their calling in life is to make political statements. Might as well. If I made millions of dollars a year going to exotic locales with beautiful women and fast cars all around, I might feel a twinge of guilt knowing I was simply playing make-believe, for money.
So....they latch on to one ideal or another that seems popular with the crowd there, and if a few people tell them they are doing something good for the world by preaching this cause or the other, perhaps, for a moment, they feel good about themselves. Schools (some-not all, of course, thankfully) have become at times as much political indoctrination than centers of education, with certain viewpoints "unwelcome" if they do not follow the official line of thinking. Teachers on the board know what I am talking about.
I'm rambling here, but I think we've been the victims of a shell game. All these years of watching the military-industrial complex, even as these industries became some of the ONLY industries to truly remain American, and then started to crumble through decades of cut-backs, the ball has been in the other hand all along as the university/media/political complex and its influence became more and more and more powerful year by year.
Ok, I'm done venting for the moment.
It's possible I'm wrong about some things, but these are my opinions about this sinister military-industrial complex. It's the decoy. The real danger is in EVERYONE's living room.
John P.
P.S. DO you have him under your cape? I think the reward is *still* good-I'd just wait until the dollar climbs a little higher again ;) :D
John,
I think you are right about the "government media/ education complex". While we are at it, let's throw big pharma on the fire too. As far as the military industrial complex goes, I think you are taking that one a bit light. In 1961 you mentioned they controlled with the fear of the "Red Army threat" but at least that was something tangible, Red Army=Soviet State= a place on the map. In this age the threat is an ideal "Terrorism". This ideal allows our government to fund the military industrial complex to no end and to go anywhere terrorists may be lurking. You are right though, the media and the classroom have much more control over the population now than they did in the sixties. With that being said, I have a hard time believing that the industries and the military had more ability to control fear in the sixties than they do now. I also don't believe it matters what retired officer is getting which company X contract, the contract is going to go to some defense contractor as long as the government keeps up their perpetual war against something that they can't beat or even find. That is what the military industrial complex is, it doesn't matter which company gets the job.
xman,
Thanks for the great post! I agree, the official story is a complete lie. Actually, I don't believe anything that comes from the mouth of the State. Keep searching for the truth no matter how futile it may seem to be.