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I work with economists every day, and I've never heard of a "consensus" that Roosevelt hurt more than helped. You're going to have to back that one up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Orange
I believe that in hindsight (which is, of course, 20-20), one can quibble with one effort or another, but I don't believe that such a "consensus" exists.
j
j
Look, I should probably apologize in advance. I spent the morning at the dentist and the afternoon at Motor Vehicles. That probably means I'm in some level of misanthropy that should preclude my interacting with civilized beings.
But (You knew there was a "but," right?), I think its' time for "conservatives" to begin to acknowledge their bastards. This fiscal crisis is the direct result of conservative economic policy. The de-regulation of the banking industry has created this crisis that we must now either bail out or suffer the consequences. It's the proverbial rock and a hard place.
I'm not saying that there's no place for "conservative" economic policy. Personally, I believe that the Democrats -- honorable people though they be -- have a lamentable tendency to over-regulate. That, in turn, tends to stifle growth. We need the other side to temper that impulse, so the economy can grow.
But the other side of the aisle has its faults, too. They tend to let business run wild. Have you ever seen the RNC's monthly newsletter? It's called "Rising Tide," after that old Kennedy quote "A rising tide lifts all boats." The Republicans are completely dedicated to the notion that what's good for the rich is good for everyone. And now, we see the result. Human nature -- the same human nature that also makes Communism unworkable -- has spoken. We need a bit more regulation, to protect ourselves from greed.
Personally, I think that history has just delivered its final verdict on Reaganomics. You may disagree. But I'd appreciate it if "conservatives" would admit for once that they got it wrong.
Right aisle, left aisle -- we need each other.
j
The problem is the current situation is totally different than any economic crisis and we are treading in new waters. Anyone who professes to have the answers to this one is a fool. There is no guarantee spending 700B will do what they are saying. All I see is the administration that caused the problem demanding a blank check and our faith in them.
Funny when the people are hit with a crisis its suck it up and it will correct itself. Funny when Wall Street is hit with a crisis we have to bail them out.
Well, I say screw them all.Let the system work itself out. let the correction happen. Maybe what this country really needs is a true crisis to get people working together instead of polarized factions. It might be the best medicine, hard to take but in the end we will be stronger. Yep I can see it now the guy with the 10million portfolio wiped out cleaning the streets of New York with a broom along side the day laborer.
I sympathize. I really do. There's nothing I'd like better than to hang these bastards up by their undersized gonads and let them swing.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
But is it worth it when the result is 20 million Americans losing their jobs? How about 80 million Americans losing their homes? Or 100 million Americans losing their retirement investments?
The best I can see here is to solve the problem and make sure it never happens again. I'm intrigued by the idea of bailing out homeowners, not banks. That way, the bad debt that threatens to sink the banks becomes good debt. And average Americans are protected in the process -- the innocents.
I'd have to see the figures, though.
j
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nord Jim
I have to strongly disagree with you there. "the innocents?" They are the reason we are in this mess. they knew that they could not pay their mortgage, but they put their John Han****s on the line and took out the mortgages. No one forced them to sign on the dotted line, no one told them they had to buy a house they could not afford. I'm sorry, but they are not innocent. Their overinflated egos, and sense of self entitlement is what caused this mess. In order to satisfy this demand, the mortgage companies created these loans to get these people who are entitled to house, into one. And not just any house, but a 5 bedroom, 3 bathroom, 3 car garage, with matching kitchen appliances, and all of the structural upgrades to boot. because that is what they are entitled to. Didn't you hear the acceptance speech, it is the American promise, not the American dream. They are entitled to this (in their own demented minds).
Matt
This was to be my next post! Well, you left me a scrap anyways!Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
The Government, through Fannie May and Freddy Mac helped to support this insanity by making it easier to get qualified for a loan! People who should've never been qualified in the first place!
i have an idea. let the mortgage companies work it out with their customers. sort of like what bigspendur said - let the system correct itself
The people don't want it (see this poll showing that only 28% support the bailout; and see this).
Most economists don't want it (see this and this).
Many congress people don't want it (see here and here).
So who wants the bailout? The only people who want it are the big money boys, the ultra elite, including the Wall Street fat cats and Fed who got us into this mess, and their counterparts abroad who would also be bailed out (see this and this).
bravo! I'm sick of all these poor bastards (by which I mean bastards with no money, not bastards that are pitiable) living in McMansions whining about how they can't pay their mortgage. this morning I saw some idiot on the news complaining that she couldn't afford her mortgage because they "changed the payments on her". it was a 400k brownstone and she made <45k/year with 5 kids to feed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
my thoughts:
1. if they changed the payments, they said they would in the contract. if they didn't say it in the contract, it's bait and switch fraud and you can sue them. if they did, and you were too lazy to read it, then you deserve to live in a cardboard box for all I care.
2. why the HELL did you think you could buy a 400k house with less than 45k/year? that's a ridiculous assumption. you don't deserve that huge brownstone... you want a big house, you gotta pay for it.
3. I am sick to death of people blaming their problems on the gov't. let's have some consequences here. you pull a stupid stunt like that, you get to live in a gutter for a while. if bill gates defaulted on the mortgage payments for his private island, would people feel sorry for him? hell no! being poor doesn't mean you deserve free stuff. get off your ass and work.
So you walk into a real estates agents office to buy a house and your not the college graduate type and you know nothing about real estate and the expert sits down with you and shows you with pen and paper how you can afford to buy this house. Maybe he tells you the mortgage is interest only or not even that or maybe he doesn't. All you know is this expert is showing you the path to home ownership. Maybe he tells you in 5 years you will have to refinance or move but look at the market going up and up and all the money ordinary folks are making. If the big shots on wall street can do it why shouldn't Joe Public be able to do the same. Or maybe your the real fiscal conservative living in California paying 2 grand a month for a 1 bedroom apartment realizing you could never afford to buy a home the old fashioned way and all your friends who make the same as you are not only living in their own homes but have investment properties and drive around in BMWs and are always traveling and having a grand time so you think who's the real chump here?Quote:
Originally Posted by mhailey
Why are people now trying to pin most of this on the average American? They are just trying to get ahead like everyone else. If the fiscal system worked as it should have these scenarios would never have happened.