Interesting Documentary

The Loch Ness monster ...aye, there is a story about intrigue and hanging chads...

some folks do seem to believe that the election in 2000 was stolen but those are the same people who register everything that has a pulse in an area... some of them are simply not capable of properly recording a vote, my dog for instance, and therefore should not have there votes counted at all.

Thus the pure spite and envy against the Bush administration which has been battling since early on (he was in office just over 8 months when 9-11 happened), against the sentiment that he was a usurper.

9-11 not Bush's fault
the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bush's fault, only because he is the president... a very large contingent of the the public wanted the government to do something big to make us feel better about our decline into third world status.

hurricane Katrina... not bush's fault... the slow response to it not bush's fault. we have laws that say that the state governor must request federal assistance in time of emergencies, the feds and the military cannot simply barge onto the scene.

however, if you listen to or read quite a wide variety of news media you would come up with the impression that Bush/cheney arranged all the problem to further their power grab

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Originally Posted by syslight

[Snip]

when we try to assign rights to people who are striving to deprive others of the basic right to life, we are no better than they.

[Snip]

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I've gone through this statement every way I know how, in and out of context, and can't make head nor tail of it. Are you saying that when we adhere to our principles in dealing with criminals, we become just like them? It makes no sense, but I can't read it any other way.

Can you explain?

j

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Originally Posted by syslight

The Loch Ness monster ...aye, there is a story about intrigue and hanging chads...

some folks do seem to believe that the election in 2000 was stolen but those are the same people who register everything that has a pulse in an area... some of them are simply not capable of properly recording a vote, my dog for instance, and therefore should not have there votes counted at all.

Thus the pure spite and envy against the Bush administration which has been battling since early on (he was in office just over 8 months when 9-11 happened), against the sentiment that he was a usurper.

9-11 not Bush's fault
the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bush's fault, only because he is the president... a very large contingent of the the public wanted the government to do something big to make us feel better about our decline into third world status.

hurricane Katrina... not bush's fault... the slow response to it not bush's fault. we have laws that say that the state governor must request federal assistance in time of emergencies, the feds and the military cannot simply barge onto the scene.

however, if you listen to or read quite a wide variety of news media you would come up with the impression that Bush/cheney arranged all the problem to further their power grab

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9-11 not Bush's fault? Well, in a way, no. It's Osama bin Laden's fault in the end. But the Bush Leaguers did ignore the very real warnings that were given them by the Clinton administration -- warnings that in retrospect could very easily have blown the cover off the operation before it happened.

On Afghanistan and Iraq, you seem to be saying that Bush didn't want those wars and only engaged in them to raise his poll numbers. On Iraq, at least, he was planning the attack before 9-11. I think Oliver Stone got that one right.

Katrina? I don't think there's any question that the federal response was hampered by the Bush administration's habitual cronyism and incompetence.

I think the right wing has to get over the fact that this administration has been the most incompetent and disastrous in American history.

Let it rest.

j

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Originally Posted by Nord Jim

Let it rest.

j

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Originally Posted by Nord Jim

Katrina? I don't think there's any question that the federal response was hampered by the Bush administration's habitual cronyism and incompetence.

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Who did Bush put in charge of FEMA before Katrina? A buddy whose qualification for the job was running horse shows.

Sadly, FEMA couldn't even get horses in there in a timely manner.

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Originally Posted by syslight

let's bring it home... it is nighttime... i break into your occupied dwelling, armed and with the intent to commit various felonies (burglary), say robbery arson and murder... you shoot me causing me to fall and break my leg... you are all for me being able to bring suit against you for the shooting and the broken leg, as well as just compensation fort he the loss of earning i would normally make from these enterprises?

no real difference when you scale it up to the national level.

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Huge difference...B&C are not executing these people, they are torturing them.

So, let's say I have been told you intended to break into my house to commit a violent crime...I come and grab you off the street, but I don't shoot you...instead I force you to wear a dog collar and do tricks...I deprive you of sleep, waterboard you, hang you by your wrists, beat you, kick you, force you to wear women's underwear, sodomize you with random objects, force you to stand naked, ridicule you, douse you with ice water.

Oh, and you have not been formally charged...and when I find out that grabbing you off the street was based on bogus info....I let you go.

When questioned by authorities, I'll just say "I had it on reliable authority that he was going to commit a crime against me, but I can't reveal the source." If the authorities ask about others I may have detained, I'll just hide behind "my personal security".

Torture does not produce reliable intelligence....B&C, their lawyers, and the amateurs the put in charge have simply been watching too many spy movies...that or they are in need of serious psychological treatment.

Reliable intelligence is gathered through interrogation, PsyOps, trickery, research, cunning, initmidation, and guile. The best intelligence is gathered from people giving it voluntarily, without their knowing it.

Violence simply gets you information that will make you stop the pain. The KGB used it to extract "confessions" - not becasue they were after the truth, but becasue they needed the confession for propaganda and so they could shoot the prisoner and afterwards wave the confession, saying "Look, he confessed!" The same tactic used by the Gestapo, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. The myth of "Ve haf vays of making you talk" is a myth. If they want real intelligence, you use cunning, guile. Even truth drugs are not always reliable.

The best interrogator I knew was a woman. During NATO exercises, when "enemy" forces were captured and subjected to extensive questioning, random sleep patterns, the nude questioning scenario, the "prisoner" was returned to his cell. She showed up dressed as a nurse, a very attractive woman, and went through the motions of taking vital signs, wiping any sweat from his face, chest, etc., all the while making conversation. Almost without fail she walked out with his name, rank unit, mission, unit location, other members names. She never had to hit him once.

What we have going on now is a violation of all the basics of HUMINT...becasue the effort is being led by politicians and not intelligence specialists.

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Originally Posted by JMS

Right or wrong, this has nothing to do with justice. This has to do with revenge, pure and simple! The left has never gotten over the fact that they were beat out in 2000 and 2004 by a"stupid hick redneck christian republican"!

Many of you on the left feel you were cheated, feel the elections were stolen from you and will do anything for your revenge!

Let it rest

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Huh? The "Left" are not the ones torturing people (campaign ads don't count)...so your statement is lost on me....

I was saying that Bush and Cheney are doing this for revenge....

As for the left not getting over 2000 and 2004, the Dems have been more than vindicated by Bush's own actions. Bush - stupid? Yes, Bush - redneck? No...not a lot of rednecks go to exclusive private schools on the East Coast. Bush - Christian? Well, he claims to be...but I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament that Christ tortured anyone or sent people to die based on lies. His faith is a political tool, just like his being a "good ole' boy". The Supreme Court decided 2000; 2004 was hardly a mandate (62 million votes and 286 electoral to 59 million votes and 252 electoral).