Medicine

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Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

This is for jockeys:

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations in 1948, proclaimed that “everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of oneself and one’s family, including food, clothing, housing, and medical care.”

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absolutely I agree. everyone has the right to get a job, earn money, and buy these things for themselves (and their families). no one has to right to live off money they didn't work for that was taken by threat of force from someone else who did work for it.

you don't automatically deserve anything. it's that sense of outrageous entitlement that has played such a big factor in our current undesirable economic situation. you deserve what you can earn/produce. nothing more. if you add no value to society, it baffles me why society should support you. it's a poor investment.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

if you add no value to society, it baffles me why society should support you. it's a poor investment.

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As I've said before, because society will pay a greater price otherwise from crime etc. Plus, it's a pi$$ poor investment to disable the downtrodden from ever being able to contribute. Social programs are enacted for more than just compassionate reasons.

Take my city for example:
Vancouver is the city with the third highest standard of living in the world behind Zurich and Geneva, the best city in my country to live in, BUT we are also home to the poorest, most drug ridden neighbourhood in the country as well, just a half hour's walk from my place. Because of the social safety net, however, the streets are damned safe by American standards if still unsightly. The debate over needle exchange programs rages, but the recent attempts to create safe injection sites (on the taxpayer's dime) means less AIDS AND constant access to free drug counseling and treatment programs. Most of these people don't want to be junkies. It's something that happened to them that they regret and would change if they could. I have no illusions about turning them all into model citizens, but I am certain that each individual can be helped to improve their situation at least a little bit and contribute a little more to society. When all take one step forward, many steps are made.

X

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Originally Posted by jockeys

absolutely I agree. everyone has the right to get a job, earn money, and buy these things for themselves (and their families). no one has to right to live off money they didn't work for that was taken by threat of force from someone else who did work for it.

you don't automatically deserve anything. it's that sense of outrageous entitlement that has played such a big factor in our current undesirable economic situation. you deserve what you can earn/produce. nothing more. if you add no value to society, it baffles me why society should support you. it's a poor investment.

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That isn't the intent. If our society operated as you wish it did, we would all have been killed by rampant disease by now. I don't mean this as a personal insult, but your argument is by definition sociopathic.

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Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

That isn't the intent. If our society operated as you wish it did, we would all have been killed by rampant disease by now. I don't mean this as a personal insult, but your argument is by definition sociopathic.

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nah, i'm not offended; i have frequently been called a sociopath. although none of what i said has to do with actually being a sociopath
Antisocial personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and a lot more to do with having a strong work ethic and being a fervent believer in personal responsibility.

but, as long as i am going to be called a sociopath, how about a little thought experiment, Modest Proposal style:
maybe we could simultaneously solve global warming, the economic crisis, the oil crisis and the healthcare crisis by simply liquifying the infirm and using them as fuel, eh?

see, that would have been sociopathic. i am going to have to disagree that humanity would have been wiped out by disease... it is the current scientific wisdom that removing the weakest individuals from a species through competition is generally healthy for the species as a whole.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

... it is the current scientific wisdom that removing the weakest individuals from a species through competition is generally healthy for the species as a whole.

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This is Social Darwinism and has been soundly denounced. :td

X

Well, over the course of my career I have for a long time thought like you. I don't know if it's my life experience or what, but over the past few years I've began growing a soft spot for people. Maybe it has something to do with finally realizing that as individuals we all have a different level of motivation and some people are truly never going to do a whole lot for themselves, be that a result of laziness, or societal influence. I truly believe that things would be made better if we had some level of health care for everyone. It would make our insurance rates lower, and medical bills just a bit less outrageous. For every self pay that goes to the ER multiple times a month (using it as an indigent health care service), we are already paying in inflated fees and premiums in the industries effort to absorb the cost. If a wino bumps his head, he gets a 3,000 dollar CT just like anyone with primo insurance. Granted I don't believe in living a life on welfare, but something else has to be done here. When I was 18 and just starting out, I received Pell Grants from the Government. Without them I would have never went to college. Of course now as a disabled Vet, I get 100% tuition, all required supplies, and 1100 bucks a month. Plus after I finish this degree, I will still have my GI Bill. I guess you could say I earned that, or not. You guys pay for it. Thanks ! ;);););)

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Originally Posted by xman

This is Social Darwinism and has been soundly denounced. :td

X

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Citation needed. The article you link does not contain any definitive denouncements. (as well it shouldn't, it's an encyclopedia.)

I am well familiar with the theory of Social Darwinism and wholeheartedly agree with it.

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Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

but over the past few years I've began growing a soft spot for people.

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that's perfectly fine. if it suits you, I support your decisions in these matters, and applaud any money you earn that you wish to donate to charity. I am generally in favor of charities to help the "less fortunate" as long as contributions are voluntary. A government program is neither voluntary nor (historically) as efficient as most private charities, thus my objections.

It's not cool to take stuff out of context! Are you a journalist? lol

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Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

It's not cool to take stuff out of context! Are you a journalist? lol

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how is that out of context?? i was responding to a particular subset of the things you said and included it for clarity :shrug: