Cold calling to get a job

:gaah:
:roflmao

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Does that type of kissing ass really work?
It is only "kissing ass" if it is not true. I have found that certain area business programs do produce people who know the difference between management and leadership. I didn't suggest that Seraphim lie, only that he display the depth of his research into the company so as to provide some proof of his interest in the same.

BTW- your style of communication makes you sound like a jerk to me (or rather did before I got to understand your differences a little better:p). It sounds as though you are on the attack. I don't know your intentions ever and don't pretend to here, but I make the statement in order to highlight how differently our cultures communicate as a further example of why you would even make this statement. You did assume that this is "kissing ass" when it could just as easily be read as straight opinion and that is the chief thing I wanted to address.

Over here it doesn't. Trying to work a pitch like that is viewed by most technical decision makers are being insecure, and having no confidence in your own technical abilities. Opening your letter like that is a gamble that is a significant chance of making you look unworthy.
Again, it was merely an example and Seraphim should know not to put anything in his letter that is untrue or bent on pure flattery. The point is, most people won't write such a letter to this individual at all, no matter what they choose to put in it, let alone writing a letter that contains actual knowledge of the company, what kind of people it has hired in the past, what kind of culture exists in the company etc. These things may not be factors in Belgium, but they serve to set you apart here in the States.

Some schools are more prestigious than others, but anyone can enroll in any school.
Not the case here, some schools are indeed more prestigious, and are harder to get into because of that fact. Getting into a prestigious school is valuable in certain professions and not in others.
For instance, if you are going to be an Architect or Commercial Designer, pedigree doesn't matter. If you are going to be a Lawyer, it could make a difference.
So in the end, noone really cares about school, and especially not for such ethereal qualities as 'leadership'.

Leadership, in my opinion, isn't ethereal. You can learn to be a good leader just as you can learn to be a good manager or programmer.

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-Rob

Yes all kissing counts. It might also be a wise move to include photos of your razors, hones, strops, soaps, etc., and some of your excellent posts. If I were the person in charge, I would admire the courage, steady hand, good coordination, and above all-the patience required to master straight razor shaving! Lasers are precise. Razors are precise. Same kinship of product utility. Give it all a try. Thank goodness for the Internet. Wishing you well, Robert

Yes.

In the good ol' US of A ass kissing counts.

If that fails I may resort to grovelling, wheedling, sniveling, bribery or perhaps even extortion or threats. It all depends on how the interview process is proceeding....:gl:

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Originally Posted by sicboater

Leadership, in my opinion, isn't ethereal. You can learn to be a good leader just as you can learn to be a good manager or programmer.



-Rob

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Most management theory says that yes you can learn to be a good leader. (Although natural managers find this very VERY difficult) but you can't be TAUGHT how to be one.

So although school might be of influence there...it's mostly individual teachers and their teaching methods that'll make the biggest difference. They will have to influence the students to develope themselves into leaders.....otherwise they're just churning out managers. (Who are in no way less important then leaders)

Hi Rob.
I'm not on the attack.

If I were to send a letter to a prospective employer here, mentioning that I know which school they went to and how it has produced visionaries and how I like working under great leaders, I will not even get an interview.

They will think 'What is wrong with this guy!?!?'

Schools have nothing to do with where you end up, or your chances of becoming a leader. Your education / degree does, but not the place you went to, since everyone can attend any school.
In the US, you need serious money or a lot of genius to attend ivy league schools.

So there is a bias in favor of rich people. And Rich people have a tendency to end up in good jobs because they know other rich people in high places. That doesn't make the school they went to any better. The school merely acted as a filter to keep out the plebs.

Our societies are very different despite all superficial similarities.
So the example that was posted about how to open a letter would be regarded here as serious ass kissing, and would significantly hurt your chances on getting a job.

EDIT: looking back, I should have probably used a different word than ass kissing, but that is really what it would be judged as.

I have a couple of stories to relate. First, I had always wanted to work as an editor for a book publisher. I started by calling the managing editors at publshers and everyone told me there were no openings. So, I asked if I could come talk to them anyway and pick their brains: I wanted to learn about the industry and maybe, while we were talking, they might think of someone else I could call.
I ended up going to the University of Chicago Press to talk to three different editors. Finally, one of them did me the favor of explaining the facts of life to me. Britannica had just finished a new edition and laid off hundreds of qualified editors. I didn't have a masters degree and even the secretary of the department had a masters and was working as the secretary waiting for an opening. He had just told her to look elsewhere because there wasn't going to be an opening. However, the Press had just opened up a new in-house typesetting department and maybe I would be interested. I was and I became a typesetter and later sold typesetting equipment.

Some years later, I interviewed for a sales job with a great company and didn't get it. About a year later, I decided to call the manager who interviewed me to find out if he was happy with the guy he hired instead of me. Well, that manager had been promoted and the operator connected me to his replacement. I explained that I had interviewed with the other manager and really liked the company but didn't get hired and that I was trying again. He was blown away that I would do that (sales managers are suckers for salesmen who keep trying) and he hired me. It was one of the best jobs I ever had.

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Originally Posted by Chimensch

I have a couple of stories to relate. First, I had always wanted to work as an editor for a book publisher. I started by calling the managing editors at publshers and everyone told me there were no openings. So, I asked if I could come talk to them anyway and pick their brains: I wanted to learn about the industry and maybe, while we were talking, they might think of someone else I could call.
I ended up going to the University of Chicago Press to talk to three different editors. Finally, one of them did me the favor of explaining the facts of life to me. Britannica had just finished a new edition and laid off hundreds of qualified editors. I didn't have a masters degree and even the secretary of the department had a masters and was working as the secretary waiting for an opening. He had just told her to look elsewhere because there wasn't going to be an opening. However, the Press had just opened up a new in-house typesetting department and maybe I would be interested. I was and I became a typesetter and later sold typesetting equipment.

Some years later, I interviewed for a sales job with a great company and didn't get it. About a year later, I decided to call the manager who interviewed me to find out if he was happy with the guy he hired instead of me. Well, that manager had been promoted and the operator connected me to his replacement. I explained that I had interviewed with the other manager and really liked the company but didn't get hired and that I was trying again. He was blown away that I would do that (sales managers are suckers for salesmen who keep trying) and he hired me. It was one of the best jobs I ever had.

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SRP members rule!

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Hi Rob.
I'm not on the attack.

If I were to send a letter to a prospective employer here, mentioning that I know which school they went to and how it has produced visionaries and how I like working under great leaders, I will not even get an interview.

They will think 'What is wrong with this guy!?!?'

Schools have nothing to do with where you end up, or your chances of becoming a leader. Your education / degree does, but not the place you went to, since everyone can attend any school.
In the US, you need serious money or a lot of genius to attend ivy league schools.

So there is a bias in favor of rich people. And Rich people have a tendency to end up in good jobs because they know other rich people in high places. That doesn't make the school they went to any better. The school merely acted as a filter to keep out the plebs.

Our societies are very different despite all superficial similarities.
So the example that was posted about how to open a letter would be regarded here as serious ass kissing, and would significantly hurt your chances on getting a job.

EDIT: looking back, I should have probably used a different word than ass kissing, but that is really what it would be judged as.

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:OT
-In many cases, you need both. But in some, you need only genius. Princeton is an Ivy League school and you only need to get in to go. Their endowment is so large all undergrads go free. Further, most of these schools are diverse enough to where you would be surprised at how much more genius it is than wealth. these figures are available on their respective websites, where I found nothing about the average student net worth. The schools are expensive, but loans are always an option (even in the current climate).

-I never said "open the letter with this," only

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Include all the information you can (in relevant context) to show your depth of research

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I hope this helps. :hmmm: I will desist from further thread Hi-Jacking at this point.


-Rob

I'll add this as well:


I didn't even go to college! So that part won't be on my resume anyhow...:D