Why is cloning "profoundly wrong"?

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

I mean, sure, it's creepy, but if you believe, as I do, that humans are not humans without a funtioning brain, it really is the same as just growing a heart in a dish, right?

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Yes, then we could grow brainless surrogate mothers to raise our clone army of superhumans! muahahahaha

Imagine the possibilities

Jockeys, I find your lack of faith disturbing

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

OK, then, I actually removed a portion of my post, then went back and removed more, but you hit on exactly what I said (part of it anyway).
If there is no brain, go ahead and grow (and harvest) those organs inside a woman. If you can do it without having to kill a person, why not? (insert disclaimer: I do not blieve that we can at this point grow organs viable for use in adults fast enough in vitiro that the "embryo" would still be in early enough stages of development for this to be morally acceptable). There are other issues, of course, such as the woman being used as a growth chamber for another persons (using myself as an example here) medical needs. Can't we just grown brainless organs/organ donors in a lab? That would be so much easier, morally speaking. I mean, sure, it's creepy, but if you believe, as I do, that humans are not humans without a funtioning brain, it really is the same as just growing a heart in a dish, right?

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OK, simple.

Criminals (preferably female), instead of being put to death can be lobotomized, thereby rendering their brain non-functional, and thus non-human, and then the sky's the limit! Use them as incubators for clone replacement. Or to avoid the fetal non-adult compliance issue, perhaps simply harvest their adult organs?

Instead of simply being put to death, they will actually be re-paying their debt to society, right? Who wouldn't support that?

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Jockeys, I find your lack of faith disturbing

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as always, it ain't a matter of faith, it's a matter of science. mapping the human brain with enough resolution to create an exact copy is completely impossible according to even the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

OK, simple.

Criminals (preferably female), instead of being put to death can be lobotomized, thereby rendering their brain non-functional, and thus non-human, and then the sky's the limit! Use them as incubators for clone replacement. Or to avoid the fetal non-adult compliance issue, perhaps simply harvest their adult organs?

Instead of simply being put to death, they will actually be re-paying their debt to society, right? Who wouldn't support that?

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Well, I believe human life is far to precious to be abused in such a way. I would not support it (as I do not support the death penalty). I know (think? HOPE?) that you are providing an absurd case to show a perceived shortcoming in my argument. I think that harvesting their organs AFTER they die asssuming they are donors, is perfectly fine. Not being a death penalty supporter, though, you'll just have to wait for them to die like everyone else.
BUT---if we grow one brainless yet otherwise functioning human female, we can then grow millions of brainless clone organ donors. Why not?

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Originally Posted by jockeys

as always, it ain't a matter of faith, it's a matter of science. mapping the human brain with enough resolution to create an exact copy is completely impossible according to even the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics.

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When the guy's right....

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Originally Posted by jockeys

as always, it ain't a matter of faith, it's a matter of science. mapping the human brain with enough resolution to create an exact copy is completely impossible according to even the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics.

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http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9894/chokehw5.jpg

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Jockeys, I find your lack of faith disturbing

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9894/chokehw5.jpg

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I was wondering if that's where the line came from!

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Well, I believe human life is far to precious to be abused in such a way. I would not support it (as I do not support the death penalty). I know (think? HOPE?) that you are providing an absurd case to show a perceived shortcoming in my argument. I think that harvesting their organs AFTER they die asssuming they are donors, is perfectly fine. Not being a death penalty supporter, though, you'll just have to wait for them to die like everyone else.
BUT---if we grow one brainless yet otherwise functioning human female, we can then grow millions of brainless clone organ donors. Why not?



When the guy's right....

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So....which human life is precious?

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Originally Posted by jockeys

I kind of doubt it. Assuming we can make the embryo grow into a fullsize human adult body somehow (which is admittedly the easier problem) then we still have a serious problem with the brain.

Assuming that a physically identical brain (all the molecules and electric charges are identical) actually contains the same memories and stuff, which is a big assumption and in no way guaranteed to work, we still have the problem of mapping all the neurons so we can build an exact copy. Currently, mapping all the neurons exceeds the computational power of every single computer on the planet, running in unison for a thousand years. But, they make better computers all the time, so we'll skip that.

We still can't map the physical brain with the necessary level of detail because Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle makes it utterly impossible to do that without screwing up our map. Regardless of what science may do, this principle is regarded as absolute (on the molecular level, especially, and the quantum level as well.) and CANNOT BE BROKEN OR AVOIDED.

It'll never happen.

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Well, maybe it's a class 1, or class 2 impossibility.


Scott

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

So....which human life is precious?

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the one that fits my previosly stated precondition for being "human life."

Brainless human female body...better? Oh, man, there are jokes to be made there.....


OT: Jockeys, I believe you meant on the ATOMIC level, not molecular, when referring to the strong nature of the HUP, correct?

I think the holy grail of cloning would be to develop a non-human host for vital organs. The idea is to be able to transplant human tissue without the need for anti-rejection therapy which suppresses the immune system.

Lets say a pig that is somehow genetically altered to be more you than pig and can grow organs. But probably not limbs - that would be very weird. Then again the issue might come up regarding the rights of the pig - is it more human than pig...



Scott

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Originally Posted by honedright

Then again the issue might come up regarding the rights of the pig - is it more human than pig...



Scott

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Sometimes it's hard to tell

http://www.weeklyreader.com/readandw...mal%20farm.jpg http://www.notarealdomain.com/blog00...n1-300x230.png

My attempts to derail this thread have failed. I think I will go have a ham sandwich now

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Originally Posted by honedright

I think the holy grail of cloning would be to develop a non-human host for vital organs. The idea is to be able to transplant human tissue without the need for anti-rejection therapy which suppresses the immune system.

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Hence my brainless "human" body idea. Now, how to get one to grow correctly without relying on a brain....someone else solve that one.

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

OT: Jockeys, I believe you meant on the ATOMIC level, not molecular, when referring to the strong nature of the HUP, correct?

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actually, now that I think of it, i should have said sub-atomic level as the HUP is a probability parameter function that limits the resolvability of a quantum particle's waveform. that's what I get for spending most of my day in HR lectures, my freaking brain won't work right :cry:

when applied to things big enough to behave under newtonian conditions, the more correct term is "the observer effect." in this case both apply, on the molecular level for the neurons themselves, and on the sub-atomic or quantum level for the electrons charging each neuron.

it's a fascinating problem, however hopelessly intractable.

Allow me to quote a selection from the famous pro stem cell research song:

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Isn't it bliss?
Don't you approve?
One who keeps tearing around,
One who can't move...
Where are the clones?
Send in the clones.

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Send in the clones......... Don't bother, they're here.

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Says it all, really.

I agree with Mark - cloning is not profoundly wrong. Just like guns or atom bombs are not profoundly wrong. A thing cannot be profoundly wrong - it just is. Actions can be profoundly wrong, not things.

James.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Sometimes it's hard to tell

http://www.weeklyreader.com/readandw...mal%20farm.jpg http://www.notarealdomain.com/blog00...n1-300x230.png

My attempts to derail this thread have failed. I think I will go have a ham sandwich now

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Yeah, go pig out :p



Scott

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Hence my brainless "human" body idea. Now, how to get one to grow correctly without relying on a brain....someone else solve that one.

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Geez, look around... :gaah: That's been going on for quite awhile now.



Scott

I didn't have time to read this: Thinking Twice: Cloning and IVF but skimming over the article, it looks interesting.

I'll read it later when I have time, but thought I'd post it for others to consider.



Scott

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

The A-bomb led to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Atiomic power led to Three mile Island and Chernobyl. Is that what we're saying?

:rolleyes:

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Well, sure if you take a specific event and judge purely on that! :rolleyes:

I guess what I'm saying here is, would human life be worse off without atomic research, taking into account Hiroshima etc. and Chernobyl etc.? I say a resounding yes. Our lives would be worse. Same applies to Cloning or Stem Cell research.

But I still reckon legislation against research such as this is pointless anyway. How do you stop progress? Sure, you can delay it, but it's going to happen. GM foods is a case in point. Europe and UK spent so much time and effort trying to outlaw GM... even going so far as to damn what little GM crop research there is in the UK with stories about the risks of cross-fertilisation with normal crops. And the whole time we import foods which are GM. Now, I don't see GM issue reported anymore in our press. They've moved onto the next Frankenstein's monster, be that Cloning or growing an ear on the back of a mouse. (OK, old example, but you get my point I hope.)

Instead of trying to outlaw such research, we should be devoting our efforts to thinking about how we use our new-found knowledge to the best of its potential.

Embryonic stem cell research: I'm all pro. The cells come from IVF, where large amounts of eggs are fertilized, a few selected ones implanted, and the rest thrown away. Might as well use the garbage for some research.

Cloning: depends on what you see as cloning. Normally, it is "making a genetic copy". So taking the full DNA from a cell, implanting it into another cell and growing a new organism from it. I'm not against, as long as the clone is considered a human like any other. Currently clones are out of the question, due to health issues. Way too much cellular problems to get a good clone.
The whole "cloning is making an exact copy of someone" is ridiculous. You can't put someone in a photocopier, set the number of copies and press Go. Never can, never will happen. The human brain is much too complicated.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

actually, now that I think of it, i should have said sub-atomic level as the HUP is a probability parameter function that limits the resolvability of a quantum particle's waveform. that's what I get for spending most of my day in HR lectures, my freaking brain won't work right :cry:
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You did mentioned sub-atomic as well. Argh...HR lectures? I recently took some revolving around "A manager's duty...Sexual harassment in the workplace." And let me tell you, those people can NOT take a joke.

Quantum sciences are a hobby of mine. I don't understand them, but I take comfort in the fact that it is likely that no one really does. Of course, I also don't even know what it IS that they know they don't know...you know?

OK, back to cloning...I want a bunch ( a troop, a gaggle? What is a group of clones called?) of cloned butlers. I just think it would be great for when guests are over.

yes, that is exactly the kind of lectures i was sitting in. as usual, we were having the lecture because something went horribly wrong and now we have to all be "re-educated".

anyhow, i studied quantum science back at university, very interesting stuff, one of the only times i really got to use my math degree:p

anyhow, the particular problem before us has actually been discussed, at length, by a physicist named Krauss in a book he wrote ten or fifteen years ago, and he concluded that duplicating a functioning human brain in any given state (say, a copy of mine, at this moment, thinking thoughts about cloning and telling my fingers to type) it utterly impossible by virtue of the HUP and other related principles.

he also brings up the very relevant point that duplicating the neurons and eletrical charges, even in the minutest detail, may very well NOT make a brain that's having the same thoughts or even one that works at all. we don't have that knowledge yet, and might never.

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Argh...HR lectures? I recently took some revolving around "A manager's duty...Sexual harassment in the workplace." And let me tell you, those people can NOT take a joke.

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Hahah. they sent you straight from that class to the Afirmative Action class? :D

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

"A manager's duty...Sexual harassment in the workplace."

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I thought it was a perk of being management, not a duty. :shrug::rofl2:

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

OK, back to cloning...I want a bunch ( a troop, a gaggle? What is a group of clones called?)

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A division? :D