Why is cloning "profoundly wrong"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

I mean, sure, it's creepy, but if you believe, as I do, that humans are not humans without a funtioning brain, it really is the same as just growing a heart in a dish, right?

---

Yes, then we could grow brainless surrogate mothers to raise our clone army of superhumans! muahahahaha

Imagine the possibilities

Jockeys, I find your lack of faith disturbing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

OK, then, I actually removed a portion of my post, then went back and removed more, but you hit on exactly what I said (part of it anyway).
If there is no brain, go ahead and grow (and harvest) those organs inside a woman. If you can do it without having to kill a person, why not? (insert disclaimer: I do not blieve that we can at this point grow organs viable for use in adults fast enough in vitiro that the "embryo" would still be in early enough stages of development for this to be morally acceptable). There are other issues, of course, such as the woman being used as a growth chamber for another persons (using myself as an example here) medical needs. Can't we just grown brainless organs/organ donors in a lab? That would be so much easier, morally speaking. I mean, sure, it's creepy, but if you believe, as I do, that humans are not humans without a funtioning brain, it really is the same as just growing a heart in a dish, right?

---

OK, simple.

Criminals (preferably female), instead of being put to death can be lobotomized, thereby rendering their brain non-functional, and thus non-human, and then the sky's the limit! Use them as incubators for clone replacement. Or to avoid the fetal non-adult compliance issue, perhaps simply harvest their adult organs?

Instead of simply being put to death, they will actually be re-paying their debt to society, right? Who wouldn't support that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Jockeys, I find your lack of faith disturbing

---

as always, it ain't a matter of faith, it's a matter of science. mapping the human brain with enough resolution to create an exact copy is completely impossible according to even the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphim

OK, simple.

Criminals (preferably female), instead of being put to death can be lobotomized, thereby rendering their brain non-functional, and thus non-human, and then the sky's the limit! Use them as incubators for clone replacement. Or to avoid the fetal non-adult compliance issue, perhaps simply harvest their adult organs?

Instead of simply being put to death, they will actually be re-paying their debt to society, right? Who wouldn't support that?

---

Well, I believe human life is far to precious to be abused in such a way. I would not support it (as I do not support the death penalty). I know (think? HOPE?) that you are providing an absurd case to show a perceived shortcoming in my argument. I think that harvesting their organs AFTER they die asssuming they are donors, is perfectly fine. Not being a death penalty supporter, though, you'll just have to wait for them to die like everyone else.
BUT---if we grow one brainless yet otherwise functioning human female, we can then grow millions of brainless clone organ donors. Why not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jockeys

as always, it ain't a matter of faith, it's a matter of science. mapping the human brain with enough resolution to create an exact copy is completely impossible according to even the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics.

---

When the guy's right....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jockeys

as always, it ain't a matter of faith, it's a matter of science. mapping the human brain with enough resolution to create an exact copy is completely impossible according to even the most basic tenets of quantum mechanics.

---

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9894/chokehw5.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Jockeys, I find your lack of faith disturbing

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9894/chokehw5.jpg

---

I was wondering if that's where the line came from!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Well, I believe human life is far to precious to be abused in such a way. I would not support it (as I do not support the death penalty). I know (think? HOPE?) that you are providing an absurd case to show a perceived shortcoming in my argument. I think that harvesting their organs AFTER they die asssuming they are donors, is perfectly fine. Not being a death penalty supporter, though, you'll just have to wait for them to die like everyone else.
BUT---if we grow one brainless yet otherwise functioning human female, we can then grow millions of brainless clone organ donors. Why not?



When the guy's right....

---

So....which human life is precious?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jockeys

I kind of doubt it. Assuming we can make the embryo grow into a fullsize human adult body somehow (which is admittedly the easier problem) then we still have a serious problem with the brain.

Assuming that a physically identical brain (all the molecules and electric charges are identical) actually contains the same memories and stuff, which is a big assumption and in no way guaranteed to work, we still have the problem of mapping all the neurons so we can build an exact copy. Currently, mapping all the neurons exceeds the computational power of every single computer on the planet, running in unison for a thousand years. But, they make better computers all the time, so we'll skip that.

We still can't map the physical brain with the necessary level of detail because Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle makes it utterly impossible to do that without screwing up our map. Regardless of what science may do, this principle is regarded as absolute (on the molecular level, especially, and the quantum level as well.) and CANNOT BE BROKEN OR AVOIDED.

It'll never happen.

---

Well, maybe it's a class 1, or class 2 impossibility.


Scott

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphim

So....which human life is precious?

---

the one that fits my previosly stated precondition for being "human life."

Brainless human female body...better? Oh, man, there are jokes to be made there.....


OT: Jockeys, I believe you meant on the ATOMIC level, not molecular, when referring to the strong nature of the HUP, correct?

I think the holy grail of cloning would be to develop a non-human host for vital organs. The idea is to be able to transplant human tissue without the need for anti-rejection therapy which suppresses the immune system.

Lets say a pig that is somehow genetically altered to be more you than pig and can grow organs. But probably not limbs - that would be very weird. Then again the issue might come up regarding the rights of the pig - is it more human than pig...



Scott