For An Intelligent Conversation On Spirituality/Religion

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Having said that the bible makes many a reference itself on how it's not complete. So the bible can not be the Final word in scripture. It says so itself. If the bible is true then the bible is not the FINAL word on God. (I'm not saying that it's not true but at the very least it's not complete.)

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actually, many fundamentalists (that I know, anyhow) do not take that line. if you look at Revealation 22:
"
¹⁸ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
¹⁹ And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."


from that passage, it would seem that intentionally altering the Bible, would, by their own rules, result in damnation. thus, the belief in the divine atomicity (again, in the computer science sense of the word) of the Bible.


this from the same people that insist on reading it in English :p

I know that passage Jockeys, I've had Jehova's Witnesses thrown that one at me many a time.

Problem is that a similar passage is also present in the book of Numbers. Thus clearing up the idea that that passage refers to the whole of the bible.

And once again in Kings (I think, if I remember right).

Thus teaching us that the authors of said books. (because the bible is (once again I'll state that) a collection of books) are referring to their own work...not to a possible compilation that might be made 3 thousand years into the future.

Basically they were adding a copyright to what they'd written.

Because if it would refers to the whole of the bible we might as well throw everything after numbers away.

Brad, the argument I was referring to was his definition of a christian. According to him a christian is someone who believes the bible to be the word of God and nothing else.

In 2nd Corinthians Paul addresses rumors that the resurrection isn't true and says that if it is not,"we of all men are most miserable." Since we appear to be the only mammal that god has gifted with the knowledge of eventual death the promise of eternal life is a wonderful thing to look forward to.

To study the bible, koran, upanishads or whatever holy text floats your boat only for the content and to accept it out of hand without looking at the origins and veracity of the texts themselves is not something that I am willing to do.

Read textual criticism and the history of how the biblical canon was formed, the politics behind it and why. Look at the time line of concepts like the virgin birth, the holy trinity and how they are not in the earliest manuscripts. Textual problems with the claimed authorship of both old and new testament books.

Wonderful events such as Jesus with the woman at the well is a story that was added in later manuscripts. Just as there are two creation stories in Genesis there are differing accounts of the birth and of the crucifixion of Jesus in the four gospels not to mention the gnostic gospels excluded from the canon for political motives.

A great preacher, the Reverend Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones once said that intuitive feelings come and go and cannot be relied upon. "All we have is this book", he said. Well the "book" is not a reliable document. Regardless of what the writer of 2 Timothy wrote, whoever he may have been, how can I base my life decisions on the text ?

For me, agnosticism is the only option until I experience something that changes my mind. 15 years of Catholic schools, church, religion classes, Bible study, and so on have not done it, so I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever.

Part of what Catholicism is about (I can't really speak to other branches of Christianity), is faith. But I can't, in my right mind, put faith in something that can't be seen, heard, felt, has no discernible influence on day-to-day operation. I know some of you will argue "of course there is influence by 'god' in day-to-day life", but this is only hearsay. For me, good things that happen daily are no more the influence of some supreme being than they are just regular people doing the right/moral thing.

As for the creation story, this is where my biggest gripe with "fundamental" biblical teachings lies. My old boss and I were sitting at the pub a couple years back and somehow got into the creation "story". My discussion went something like this: "I read in an article on Bible study that the Bible puts the creation at 11,013 B.C. Now if you are a Christian, do you inherently believe that the creation happened in 11,013 B.C.? Do you ignore carbon dating, fossilized remains, oil deposits, plate techtonics, etc. and simply, blindly believe this because the Bible says so?"

The answer: "Yes."

I had to pick my jaw up off the bar.

Most of the people I know are Catholics and they are all good people. My girlfriend goes to church every Sunday. I even went with her a couple times because it makes her happy. But I can't get my head around (and she doesn't try to either) just believing something without some kind of evidence.

I hope I don't come off as offensive, but this seemed like an open discussion on beliefs and these are mine.

And I do want to emphasize that I am not an atheist. I just favor the Socratic philosophy versus playing follow the leader. It's perfectly fine to admit that I have no idea what supernatural influence exists, if any, but if it should reveal itself to me with proper evidence then consider me converted!

Thanks for reading,

Ogie

Ogie,
Your views are not unusual. I will say though that my views were identical not that many years ago.
I am basically an engineer/scientist by trade and need to see proof of everything.....but then one day everything was different. I can't explain it but my way of thought and being turned 180 degrees.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Ogie,
Your views are not unusual. I will say though that my views were identical not that many years ago.
I am basically an engineer/scientist by trade and need to see proof of everything.....but then one day everything was different. I can't explain it but my way of thought and being turned 180 degrees.
Tony

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Tony,

The bottom line is that everybody EDIT: should be happy with what they've got. I don't feel pained or empty because I lack a relationship with a higher power. And you feel great because you do have that relationship. Everybody wins, nobody loses, and we'll all just continue being friends.

That's the way I look at most things (besides religion, too). It makes everybody's life easier.

Thanks,

Ogie

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Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

For me, agnosticism is the only option until I experience something that changes my mind. 15 years of Catholic schools, church, religion classes, Bible study, and so on have not done it, so I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever.

Part of what Catholicism is about (I can't really speak to other branches of Christianity), is faith. But I can't, in my right mind, put faith in something that can't be seen, heard, felt, has no discernible influence on day-to-day operation. I know some of you will argue "of course there is influence by 'god' in day-to-day life", but this is only hearsay. For me, good things that happen daily are no more the influence of some supreme being than they are just regular people doing the right/moral thing.

As for the creation story, this is where my biggest gripe with "fundamental" biblical teachings lies. My old boss and I were sitting at the pub a couple years back and somehow got into the creation "story". My discussion went something like this: "I read in an article on Bible study that the Bible puts the creation at 11,013 B.C. Now if you are a Christian, do you inherently believe that the creation happened in 11,013 B.C.? Do you ignore carbon dating, fossilized remains, oil deposits, plate techtonics, etc. and simply, blindly believe this because the Bible says so?"

The answer: "Yes."

I had to pick my jaw up off the bar.

Most of the people I know are Catholics and they are all good people. My girlfriend goes to church every Sunday. I even went with her a couple times because it makes her happy. But I can't get my head around (and she doesn't try to either) just believing something without some kind of evidence.

I hope I don't come off as offensive, but this seemed like an open discussion on beliefs and these are mine.

And I do want to emphasize that I am not an atheist. I just favor the Socratic philosophy versus playing follow the leader. It's perfectly fine to admit that I have no idea what supernatural influence exists, if any, but if it should reveal itself to me with proper evidence then consider me converted!

Thanks for reading,

Ogie

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As you say, I don't want to be offensive and hope I haven't been.
I am curious to know what PROPER EVIDENCE would be for you ?

These two books gave evident that I would accept, Don't know if it would suffice for you. They were written by men who started out as Atheists and through their investigations have proper evidence given to them to accept. One a Lawyer and Journalist, the other a Biology major ans Dentist.
The books are " The CASE for a CREATOR " by Lee Strobel, and " The Evolution of a Creationist " by Jobe Martin

As an after thought and this part, is for all reading the post.

Everything i've been saying is out of love for mankind, because in My belief system, those who do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus for sin that there is an eternal price to pay. [be it correct or not that is the reason behind it] I do not wish to have this happen to anyone. I will not be pushy about it, as some are, that are in the same opinion as I, I don't like them either.

The thread reminded me of something I saw on a website some time ago. Youtube has it here: YouTube - The delusion of Religions

I gave my next-door neighbor the link months ago. He hasn't tried to "convert" me since...:D

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Originally Posted by Sticky

The thread reminded me of something I saw on a website some time ago. Youtube has it here: YouTube - The delusion of Religions

I gave my next-door neighbor the link months ago. He hasn't tried to "convert" me since...:D

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Congratulations on a great thread Jimmy but I fear this is the first post to a downhill slide.

deleted - I hit refresh and double-posted. sorry :-P