Socialism Works!

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Originally Posted by jockeys

1. even being poor, you can get into a good school. i did. it's called a scholarship, and if you work hard enough, you can get a great education even without a ton of money.

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This doesn't mean everybody has the same opportunities. If you have enough money either because your family worked really hard or they stole really hard you don't need to work hard at all, for example you get into a good school no matter what.
If you're poor you have to be pretty smart to get ahead, if you're rich you don't.
Equal opportunity is a fiction anyways.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

2. it's theft because people that pay more taxes don't get more services from the government. if anything, it's the opposite.

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This is debatable. Some people get a lot more worth than the taxes they pay and this is true on both ends of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by gugi

Equal opportunity is a fiction anyways.

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correct. so why not get over it, rejoice that if you're smart you have a chance, and get as far ahead as you can?

if you work hard, you can succeed, bottom line. maybe some people will succeed without deserving it, but that's not your problem or mine. they have to make peace with that on their own. my only responsibility is to work as hard as i can and get as far ahead as i can.

i'm reminded of a parable. one morning a man sees a sign by a field; "$100 for a day's work". so he goes to the farmer by the sign, grabs a tool and gets to work. he works long and hard all day. right before the end of the day, another guy shows up and starts working. half an hour later, it's quitting time.

the farmer hands the first man $100. "as promised, here is your $100." he also hands the second man $100. the first man is upset, "i worked much harder for my $100! that isn't fair!"

the farmer replies, "you willingly worked for the promise of $100 and $100 you got, fair and square. what i pay this other man is none of your concern. you got exactly what you bargained for, so be grateful and do not complain."

thus endeth the lesson. learn from it what you will.

I'm most certainly over the perfect fairness being unattainable thing, I was just pointing out a simple lapse in logic - I thought it is quite relevant.

All we're talking here is different models of society, and I don't understand why so many people can't get over the idea that there is not an ultimate model which is best in all cases.
A lot of things work really well, in different circumstances, none of them is perfect and they all succeed in some aspects and fail in others.

Whether we like it or not fairness is one of the fundamental principles of our moral view as humans. Parables are nice and all, but I like to live with other people, that's why I am concerned with what happens with them as well. It's not only me though - the very fact that people post here means that they care for more than what's in their immediate control,

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Originally Posted by jockeys

correct. so why not get over it, rejoice that if you're smart you have a chance, and get as far ahead as you can?

if you work hard, you can succeed, bottom line. maybe some people will succeed without deserving it, but that's not your problem or mine. they have to make peace with that on their own. my only responsibility is to work as hard as i can and get as far ahead as i can.

i'm reminded of a parable. one morning a man sees a sign by a field; "$100 for a day's work". so he goes to the farmer by the sign, grabs a tool and gets to work. he works long and hard all day. right before the end of the day, another guy shows up and starts working. half an hour later, it's quitting time.

the farmer hands the first man $100. "as promised, here is your $100." he also hands the second man $100. the first man is upset, "i worked much harder for my $100! that isn't fair!"

the farmer replies, "you willingly worked for the promise of $100 and $100 you got, fair and square. what i pay this other man is none of your concern. you got exactly what you bargained for, so be grateful and do not complain."

thus endeth the lesson. learn from it what you will.

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You do know that that parable is credited to Jesus don't you? (don't really want to say anything one way or the other just pointing it out.) Offcourse he didn't talk about $100 but that IS where the parable came from.

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

You do know that that parable is credited to Jesus don't you? (don't really want to say anything one way or the other just pointing it out.) Offcourse he didn't talk about $100 but that IS where the parable came from.

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Actually that particular parable is credited to Jockeys - that heathen. He's no better than a publican or a tax collector I say! A hundred dollars my foot. John the Baptist lived on locusts where is he getting this hundred dollars crap?

Anyway back to what I was going to say, the purpose of government is not to make everything fair, but should be to protect everyone's individual right to be free to make whatever they choose to of their lives

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Anyway back to what I was going to say, the purpose of government is not to make everything fair, but should be to protect everyone's individual right to be free to make whatever they choose to of their lives

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And that's exactly the main reason to say no to socialism or too strong governments.

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Originally Posted by gugi

Whether we like it or not fairness is one of the fundamental principles of our moral view as humans.

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maybe your moral view. it's not a part of mine. "fair" is a vague concept, bordering on undefinable. what seems fair to one man isn't fair at all to another. let's just cut the BS and say "fair = what I like" because most of the time that's all it means anyway.

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

You do know that that parable is credited to Jesus don't you? (don't really want to say anything one way or the other just pointing it out.) Offcourse he didn't talk about $100 but that IS where the parable came from.

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really??? golly gee, i must have missed that during the 4.5 years of theological school... :w just because (I think) the Bible is a work of fiction doesn't mean there aren't good lessons to learn from it. one could say the same about the works of Tolkien as well, but I digress.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

maybe your moral view. it's not a part of mine. "fair" is a vague concept, bordering on undefinable. what seems fair to one man isn't fair at all to another. let's just cut the BS and say "fair = what I like" because most of the time that's all it means anyway.

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I don't make these up, it's anthropological 'fact' which goes across time and space. It isn't culture specific and it's as vagueness stems from being abstract.
I wouldn't dismiss it the way you do, but it's really your choice.

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Originally Posted by gugi

I don't make these up, it's anthropological 'fact' which goes across time and space.

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[citation needed]

If I might make a recommendation for a good book at this point (as I sense that this thread is near death), it's a great book about the intellectual origins of the U.S. Constitution. Covers a great deal of historical thought and philosophy that influenced the framers.

Novus Ordo Seclorum, by Forrest McDonald (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_McDonald)

Link to the book at Amazon: Amazon.com: Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution: Forrest McDonald: Books

I'm about half way through and will probably need to read it at least one more time (maybe I'm a little thick, I don't know...). If you haven't read it, and are interested the origins of the United States, and the thinking that went on at that time, you may very well enjoy this book.