Keyboards - Split from "Do you touch-type or hunt-and-peck"

It seemed like the conversation was getting a bit off track over there, so I thought I'd open up a different thread to talk specifically about keyboards.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm using a TypeMatrix 2020 (Product Overview of the TypeMatrix keyboard) because I like the scissor keys (like a laptop), vertical key alignment, extra keys in the middle, and it does hardware Dvorak.

I don't really see myself getting another keyboard until multi-touch comes back. A college buddy of mine had (and still has) a Touchstream, and typing/gesturing on that was really cool. He did offer to sell it to me, but he wanted Ebay prices for it. You'll see them now and then on Ebay, and they go for crazy amounts of money. If only Apple hadn't bought Fingerworks and decided to sit on the patent...

Anyway, I'd love to hear about some of the other keyboards that are in use, especially the fancy ones.

Is multi-touch the same as chording? I used to like The Microwriter concept, I thought it was a shame it died out, but it seems to live on today in the CyKey.

You mention a small but important idea - vertical key alignment. It's clear why manufacturers feel the need to stick with QWERTY, but why do they still have the rows of keys offset sideways? Typewriters needed it for mechanical reasons, computer keyboards don't. Nor do typists. I'm sure trained typists could adapt easily to aligned keys.

I already have a near-perfect solution for gaming, the Nostromo N52te. The main advantage is that you rest your hand on this controller and 14 programmable keys lie under your 4 fingers in a 5x3 grid (one position has a scroll wheel.) It has other supposedly game-friendly features, but having many keys within easy reach without having to look is the big selling point in my eyes.

Attachment 23785

My ideal input device would be similar to having two N52s side-by-side, one for each hand. Each would have 18 keys for the fingers in a 6x3 pattern, making them all insanely easy to reach from the central 4 home keys. Add in 2 or 3 buttons for each thumb.

I use a conventional ergonomic keyboard. I would have to hunt & peck on a standard until I got used to it again. The TypeMatrix looks very interesting. I imagine I would have to retrain my fingers if I were to switch over to that. Do you find less strain in the fingers and tendons using it ?

I use a 1984 IBM Model M (84-key) keyboard. Fell in love with it on my first PC-AT, and though I've tried various other keyboards over the years (including the 101-key Model M) I prefer the 84-key version for its narrower width and shorter reach to the mouse.

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

Is multi-touch the same as chording? I used to like The Microwriter concept, I thought it was a shame it died out, but it seems to live on today in the CyKey.

You mention a small but important idea - vertical key alignment. It's clear why manufacturers feel the need to stick with QWERTY, but why do they still have the rows of keys offset sideways? Typewriters needed it for mechanical reasons, computer keyboards don't. Nor do typists. I'm sure trained typists could adapt easily to aligned keys.

I already have a near-perfect solution for gaming, the Nostromo N52te. The main advantage is that you rest your hand on this controller and 14 programmable keys lie under your 4 fingers in a 5x3 grid (one position has a scroll wheel.) It has other supposedly game-friendly features, but having many keys within easy reach without having to look is the big selling point in my eyes.


My ideal input device would be similar to having two N52s side-by-side, one for each hand. Each would have 18 keys for the fingers in a 6x3 pattern, making them all insanely easy to reach from the central 4 home keys. Add in 2 or 3 buttons for each thumb.

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Multitouch is different from chording. The Touchstream, which was a multi-touch keyboard, had two functions. One was a zero-force typing mechanism and the other was the ability to "gesture" on it such that you didn't need a mouse and could do lots of shortcuts. It's hard to explain, but you can check it out here TouchStream LP -- Zero-Force USB Keyboard with Integrated Pointing and Gesture Shortcuts.

I also have an N52, but the older version. I love it for gaming but wish it had more buttons.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I use a conventional ergonomic keyboard. I would have to hunt & peck on a standard until I got used to it again. The TypeMatrix looks very interesting. I imagine I would have to retrain my fingers if I were to switch over to that. Do you find less strain in the fingers and tendons using it ?

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It didn't take me long at all to adjust to the layout, and I find I can switch between the TM and a conventional keyboard very easily. I don't notice any difference in strain, but I never noticed any strain anyway. Rewiews say that it is supposed to be excellent for reducing strain and repetitive motion injuries, though.

I just found a page debunking the Dvorak vs QWERTY war:
Typing Errors: The standard typewriter keyboard is Exhibit A in the hottest new case against markets. But the evidence has been cooked. - Reason Magazine
If you skim past some boring stuff there's some strong evidence that the benefits of the Dvorak layout have been (ahem) exaggerated.

I was toying with the idea of trying it. I'll put it on hold.

Im just starting to make the transition fron hunt n peck to touch type after 10 years of playing around on the internet. I do still need to look at the keyboard because I dont have all the letters memorized yet.

Just wanted to write a bit about my previous keyboard, the Logitech G15 (first Gen). It was a really nice looking board, and the blue backlights were a nice touch without being too bright. I loved having the LCD screen to show my system vitals (that was back when I was overclocking pretty hard and wanted to keep an eye on temps, voltages, fan speeds, etc). But not too long after I got it, I also got a second moniter. Since I could keep an eye on all the stats on my second moniter and since I didn't really use the macro keys on the G15, I decided to get something that was a bit nicer to type on. The G15 had a very soft feel (not much feedback), and it also took up a lot of desk space.

http://blog.damienalexandre.fr/publi...ier_2006/1.jpg

I use a Das Keyboard and a Nostromo N52 (orange and black one, few versions old) plus a logitech mx500 on a func 1030 surface.

i liked the old model M keyboards the best, the Das is the closest thing to it i can find. i tried the Bat Chord back in the day, but I hated it.

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

I just found a page debunking the Dvorak vs QWERTY war:
Typing Errors: The standard typewriter keyboard is Exhibit A in the hottest new case against markets. But the evidence has been cooked. - Reason Magazine
If you skim past some boring stuff there's some strong evidence that the benefits of the Dvorak layout have been (ahem) exaggerated.

I was toying with the idea of trying it. I'll put it on hold.

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From what I've read about Dvorak, alot of the appeal is that its alot more comfortable to use, not just accuracy. The most frequently used keys are under your fingers (home keys), so you don't need to move around the keyboard as much. As a matter of fact, I think I remember reading a some forum posts by DVORK users, and I think they said that their typing speed had gone and stayed down from their qwerty use, but they still liked dvorak better. That being said, its too much bother for me to mess around with.

I use one of those funky split "ergonomic" keyboards. Started b/c they were what you had to use at a place I worked, and I grew to really like them. This is what I use-

Amazon.com: Logitech 967692-0403 Cordless Desktop Comfort Laser (Black): Electronics

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

I just found a page debunking the Dvorak vs QWERTY war:
Typing Errors: The standard typewriter keyboard is Exhibit A in the hottest new case against markets. But the evidence has been cooked. - Reason Magazine
If you skim past some boring stuff there's some strong evidence that the benefits of the Dvorak layout have been (ahem) exaggerated.

I was toying with the idea of trying it. I'll put it on hold.

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I had never actually heard an argument about accuracy - I thought it was more about speed and the reduction of repetitive motion injuries. While I do like to point out that some common errors (such as teh) are far less frequent in Dvorak, I assume the actual errors and frequency of those errors has just as much, if not more, to do with the typer (typist?) as the layout.

All I can really say is that, personally, I type faster on Dvorak than I did on QWERTY, and that includes the time it takes to proofread.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Just wanted to write a bit about my previous keyboard, the Logitech G15 (first Gen).

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That's the one I had. I bought it mostly for the 18 programmable macro keys (54 macros with the 3 shifted states.) Although they are great, the layout doesn't really lend itself to gaming, they are more useful for Photoshop or something like that. Key feel was good for a membrane keyboard, but nothing special.

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Originally Posted by jockeys

I use a Das Keyboard and a Nostromo N52 (orange and black one, few versions old)

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I have that version too. Only reason I "upgraded" was that the scroll wheel on the old one kept going offline due to a driver problem. Believe it or not some people rip out the electronics from the old N52 and put them into the N52te case. That way they get 4 shift states instead of 3 and the superior older software, but in the new casing that feels slightly improved. :rofl2:

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Originally Posted by Pete_S

From what I've read about Dvorak, alot of the appeal is that its alot more comfortable to use, not just accuracy.

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Good point.

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

I have that version too. Only reason I "upgraded" was that the scroll wheel on the old one kept going offline due to a driver problem. Believe it or not some people rip out the electronics from the old N52 and put them into the N52te case. That way they get 4 shift states instead of 3 and the superior older software, but in the new casing that feels slightly improved. :rofl2:

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hell, i don't even use the drivers, i just treat it as a normal usb keyboard. i bought it because it was more comfortable for long twitch-fps sessions.

If anyone's interested, you can get a bargain Dell clicky keyboard for $20 on ebay today. Not quite an IBM Model M, but close.
Some info on that model here.

I would get it myself if it wasn't for the $48.50 shipping to the UK. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

My ideal input device would be similar to having two N52s side-by-side, one for each hand. Each would have 18 keys for the fingers in a 6x3 pattern, making them all insanely easy to reach from the central 4 home keys. Add in 2 or 3 buttons for each thumb.

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Hmm, looks like something along those lines already exists.
And you get change from a grand! (Until you add postage.)
Attachment 23825
geekhack forums - Powered by vBulletin is to keyboards what SRP is to razors. :D

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Originally Posted by Rajagra

Hmm, looks like something along those lines already exists.
And you get change from a grand! (Until you add postage.)
Attachment 23825
geekhack forums - Powered by vBulletin is to keyboards what SRP is to razors. :D

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I don't remember where or why, but I found a site of a guy that took an egro keyboard, hacked it it half, and put one half on each arm of an arm chair. It was all wired up and fully functional. Looked pretty cool, especially if you're trying to avoid RMI's and shoulder stress.

I'm using whatever keyboard comes free with my computer. This one happens to be from an ACER. I never knew anything like the Dvorak existed. The history and thought behind it intrigues me. However, I'd rather not have to re-learn typing, as it was a rather tedious class in highschool. I would love to own something like this, though:
http://www.datamancer.net/keyboards/...deco7_800p.jpg
This is a custom, home-made art-deco style keyboard. I recently found out about steampunk, and while I'm not as skilled as some of these folks, I can appreciate what they do. This particular one was made for a video store. The tend to use antique type-writer buttons, for an added vintage appeal. Anyone else like this sorta thing?

I've seen that guy's page, the one who makes the custom keyboards. I do agree that they look really cool, but unless I had a whole setup that went along with the same style, I wouldn't want just the keyboard.

Yeah those steampunk keyboards are impressive - but if I made one I would have a proper carriage return lever. :D
Attachment 23902

i really like the keyboard on my Dell laptop as the key action is great and the size is really nice as i don't have very long fingers. i know basically nothing about keyboards but since i have started on this forum and a couple other (ride on two, cloudy nights) i find i do really notice the difference and hate this Microsoft keyboard more and more.

so are there any cheap options for a keyboard like the one on my laptop? i don't have a lot to spend considering that this one still works :shrug: i thought about ebay but would like one from a store that i can see and touch really.

i remember seeing something about those Datahand things a long time ago and wondered what ever happened to them. now i know :p

Yup, there are some cheap options. Laptop keyboards use scissor type keys, and there are quite a few desktop keyboards with the same mechanism. The added bonus is that the keyboards tend to be rather thin.

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Originally Posted by chee16

so are there any cheap options for a keyboard like the one on my laptop? ... i thought about ebay but would like one from a store that i can see and touch really.

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Cheap + from a store will probably mean a no-name import. But give them a try, a laptop-feel keyboard is easier to build than a solid, clicky one, so you might be happy with what you find.

If you are after a compact keyboard, take a look at the Cherry ML-4100 and G84-4100 keyboards. Make sure the keyboard layout suits you, at geekhack.org they seem to prefer the 83-key version of the ML-4100 without Windows keys. These use Cherry ML switches which have 3mm of travel.:gl:

so its the ML part of the model that i am looking for?
i looked at a bunch of Cherry keyboards online now and am not sure exactly what i am looking for in the description. obviously they won't say "scissor type" keys or anything.

thanks for the help by the way.

i apologize for stealing the thread. :ziplip:

I've just taken delivery of a G84-4100. They have a lot more travel and feedback than average laptop keyboards, so you might not like them. They are very nice though.

If you want that laptop feel, something described as soft-touch might be right.

Scissor-switch describes the way the key caps are engineered to move down smoothly, so is good sign.

There's a good summary of switch types here.

actually i checked that out earlier, it was pretty interesting.

i looked around a bit a different stores and really couldn't figure out which ones had what type of keys without taking them out of the boxes. apparently Logitech makes and Ultra X keyboard that is supposed to be nice, and a good price.

i will keep looking. the search has begun :mace:

so i found one made by IOGear called the Ultra Thin. it cost me $40 (which i thought was good) but it came with a 5 button optical mouse. the key profile it just like my laptop and though it doesn't perform exactly the same as my laptop i do like it. both are NOT wireless which is what i was looking for.

i was looking at what type of key it uses and it has a picture on the back. each key uses 4 thin gears, one on each side. it seems to work pretty good.


thanks for all the advice, and again i apologize for hijacking the thread.