One related to the joke thread controversy

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Then society can not perform any act but at all. No act can be reversed EVER.
You can not go back in time and reverse the consequences of any action.

You can not say to a man that was wrongly incarcerated for 20+ years, sorry....here's some money you now have those 20 years back that we took from you.

You can not say to a man that was wrongly fined a large sum of money "I'm sorry, here's the money back that we took from you." when the paying of the fine caused the downfall of the rest of his life, buisiness, mariage, and everything he loved dear.

Nothing can ever be reversed.

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Of course you can't unring a bell but you can release a man from prison and you can restore him to his life as best you can but until we can create life itself, we should not be so arrogant as to take it away.

Regarding the other, it is the same. If you think it's okay to mistakenly take the life of an innocent while attempting to eliminate violent crime, I ask you, would you still feel that way if you were that inncoent victim? Would your family shrug their shoulders and say. "Well its not a perfect system and every now and then someone innocent must die in order to catch the guilty." If you want to limit the arguments to only those on your terms, well, I guess you are right, it is then your ball and we will have to play by your rules.

That is fine Chris but that isn't what prison is. There are some individuals who may be locked up in max security prisons under extreme conditions for a given length of time but by and large prisons are not as you describe.

For those of you who are on the anti death penalty side none of this matters and for those who are pro death penalty likewise. It is a debate that will go in circles with no minds changed IMO.

We can trot out examples of heinous crimes or innocents wrongfully imprisoned or worse executed and each side will empathize with whichever they have a proclivity towards. For me I tend to feel for the victims and the loved ones who are left behind.

I've known a number of murderers. Some who killed in bar room brawls, others premeditatedly for profit or out of jealousy. I hung out with one guy when I was a teenager who died in Florida's electric chair (double murder of two police officers) years after I had known him and was not at all surprised that he ended up there.

Say all that to say that I've known some people who wouldn't feel anymore remorse about killing you than I would in swatting a fly.

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

Oh gosh, I couldn't disagree more with that quote. If prison is designed in a way that doesn't seem so "terrible" then I'll give you that the quote you've cited would have validity and at present probably does given the prison system.

However, what if prison were designed in the following way?

An 8x8 cell with a metal door a toilet and a mattress........and nothing else but bare walls. Solitary for all murderers for life. Can you think of anything more terrifying? Decades and decades of being confined to the same small box with essentially nothing in it? No books, magazines, TV, cigarettes, posters, no real sensory stimulation. I don't think it would be long before even the most sane person would fashion a doll out of their own feces and regard it as a friend to talk with.

Now I think that would be more cruel and strike fear in the minds of most anyone who would take even a moment to consider what that would really be like versus death before they'd commit a crime.

Chris L

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Sounds like a military brig! I like it!!

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

An 8x8 cell with a metal door a toilet and a mattress........and nothing else but bare walls. Solitary for all murderers for life. Can you think of anything more terrifying? Decades and decades of being confined to the same small box with essentially nothing in it? No books, magazines, TV, cigarettes, posters, no real sensory stimulation. I don't think it would be long before even the most sane person would fas
Chris L

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if you wanted it to be really hard, you'd have it in total darkness. as little sound as possible, etc. long term sensory deprivation usually breaks people...

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Originally Posted by jockeys

if you wanted it to be really hard, you'd have it in total darkness. as little sound as possible, etc. long term sensory deprivation usually breaks people...

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On the contrary, never turn out the lights and have loud rap music (if you want to call it music) playing all of the time.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

On the contrary, never turn out the lights and have loud rap music (if you want to call it music) playing all of the time.

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I hereby change my vote on this topic...give me the friggen chair!

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Originally Posted by jockeys

if you wanted it to be really hard, you'd have it in total darkness. as little sound as possible, etc. long term sensory deprivation usually breaks people...

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I did think about adding in total darkness in the mix but not until a posted.

Now really, between total lifelong near complete sensory deprivation, feeling for the food on your disposable flimsy paper tray, etc

or

A quick death at the hands of the state.

Which would you pick if you only had one or the other option to choose from?

And I agree, Jimmy, the current prison system is not how I describe. However, given that we're debating concepts here in my mind the debate isn't whether capital punishment or the current prison system is worse or more of an effective deterrent to murderous crimes. The prison system could be fixed and modified in similar ways to what I've described. My point is I believe the type of punishment I've described would be worse than death and the prison system has the capability of being modified as such. In this world that seems all too often backwards, I would guess that the general public would think lifelong near complete deprivation in a solitary box would be too cruel. I also think it would be cruel; but.....I think most anyone capable of reason would think twice about committing murder if they knew the consequence should they get caught would be life in "The Box" (Kiss your mind and sanity goodbye. 1984's "Room 101" at its worst) rather than life on the inside with the potential of decades of appeals and only a small chance of a sentence actually being carried out.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

I think most anyone capable of reason would think twice about committing murder if they knew the consequence should they get caught would be life in "The Box"

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Most anyone would think twice about committing murder .... thank God ! It is those who don't and those who do but do it anyway that we are concerned with. Personally I wouldn't commit murder if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would get away with it. I wouldn't want to have to live with it on my conscience. IMO and IME that is the difference between those who deserve the ultimate penalty.

One guy I knew beat a fellow to death with a cue ball in a bar fight. He did seven years. He didn't plan on killing the guy or going that far and I don't think he should have gotten the death penalty. Whether seven years was enough is debatable but it was the state's penalty.

The two guys I mentioned earlier who killed the three women in a robbery don't deserve to go on living no matter what their circumstances IMO. 'People', and I use the term advisedly' like the BTK killer, Bundy, Gacy more so. For me whether it is a deterrent or not is not an issue. It is about societal retribution.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Most anyone would think twice about committing murder .... thank God ! It is those who don't and those who do but do it anyway that we are concerned with. Personally I wouldn't commit murder if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would get away with it. I wouldn't want to have to live with it on my conscience. IMO and IME that is the difference between those who deserve the ultimate penalty.

One guy I knew beat a fellow to death with a cue ball in a bar fight. He did seven years. He didn't plan on killing the guy or going that far and I don't think he should have gotten the death penalty. Whether seven years was enough is debatable but it was the state's penalty.

The two guys I mentioned earlier who killed the three women in a robbery don't deserve to go on living no matter what their circumstances IMO. 'People', and I use the term advisedly' like the BTK killer, Bundy, Gacy more so. For me whether it is a deterrent or not is not an issue. It is about societal retribution.

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That sums it up for me as well. You've got to live in your own skin while alive on this planet.

Chris L

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Originally Posted by smokelaw1

I hereby change my vote on this topic...give me the friggen chair!

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I'm sayin man !!!
knowing you are right is only worth so much

just make it quick


I jsut wanted to point out one more time that there IS such a thing as a rabid dog and no amount of "nice doggy" will prevent his trying to eat your leg.