Health Care in the USA

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Originally Posted by slt5103

The United States is based off of a free market economy. The Founding Fathers believed in a hard working, discerning and loyal pool of citizens. They used their hard fought freedom and education to put together what we know to day as the United States system of a Democratic Republic. (More on this later)

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They also believed in slavery. They were fallible humand and not everything they did was perfect. Btw they were also well off without poor men's problems.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

3)The price tag of this venture will be in the Trillions of dollars. My guess will be 10 Trillion if everything is said and done.

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People are already paying that amount of money. Only now it's to private insurers who are in it for the bottom line, instead of for your benefit.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

Private Health care providers are like mom and pop stores.

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Are you dreaming? Mom and pop stores care. Med insurers care about their bottom line, and deny as much as possible. They are scum that have their own circle in hell.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

There are enough of them that you can shop around and find one that will cater to you and give you the best price.

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That is contrary to what the other americans here say.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

Often times this is let up to your employer. Private providers have to have competitive prices because they need customers to make money.

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:roflmao

Milk farmers need cows to make milk. They want cows that give as much milk as possible with the minimum amount of moo. If they get more moo than milk, it's off to the hamburger factory.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

The problem with health care for everyone, is that everyone won't be contributing to it. If an illegal immigrant (any of the, maybe, ~22 million) walks into a hospital and wants medical treatment, they can get it. It's in the bill! READ IT or ask you legislator if they read it. So a person that doesn't pay taxes or contributes to the health care option gets to use it. Where will that cost be made up? You guessed it... Premiums or Taxes (they'll choose). That comes out of your wallets!!! If you think I am lying or making up a conspiracy theory, read through the Obama health care bill. Better yet, ask your legislator! See what he/she responds. #2 explained.

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And yet it seems to work for all countries that actually do it.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

So with no other competitors to check the governments prices and alot of people that don't pay into the system to take care of, how much will it cost. That's a good question. Would you trust the institution that regulates Medicare and Medicade to regulate everyones health options?

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The government only pays. they don't say who gets what.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

The system we have now is pretty darn good. It's not on the verge of failing apart. Does it need some work? YES! Does it need this overhaul? H3LL NO!

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Did you read the comments by the Americans here that half of the foreclosures are caused by medically induced bankruptcy? Your system sucks so bad, words cannot describe it unless you are really rich or as healthy as a rhinoceros

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Originally Posted by slt5103

Help keep America strong! BE A PATRIOT.

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So people who care for what can benefit the entire population are unpatriotic?
Is it unpatriotic to be against the war on terror hysteria?
Is it unpatriotic to be in favor of gay marriage?

Seems to me that partiotism is used a lot to quell dissent.

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Originally Posted by slt5103

Did the Founding Fathers, who devised this great nation, ask King George to make sure he was making decisions in the best interest of America? YES! Did they react when they found out the answer? You're free from England aren't you... there's your answer.
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Yes... you're free... because France jumped in and helped in the war for independence.

You know, I hear a lot of complaining about how bad it will be, but people seem to ignore the fact that the concept works in every European nation, Canada, and wherever it is implemented.

The simple fact remains that
1) I pay less than an american
2) I have full coverage incl dental
3) Care is available to everyone
4) Care is good, available, when I need it, where I need it.

So explain to me again exactly how the US system is better?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

You know, I hear a lot of complaining about how bad it will be, but people seem to ignore the fact that the concept works in every European nation, Canada, and wherever it is implemented.

The simple fact remains that
1) I pay less than an american
2) I have full coverage incl dental
3) Care is available to everyone
4) Care is good, available, when I need it, where I need it.

So explain to me again exactly how the US system is better?

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They are trying to fix something that is not broken. They should limit to address the need of those that don't have any insurance and leave the rest the way it is.


1. Are you sure you know how much you pay and how much an american pays? I doubt it very much
2. You probably have full coverage for "whatever they give you"
3. Same in the US, hospital can't refuse, by law, to provide medical attention to everyone.
4. I wonder what your definition of "good" is. I know the system implemented in Spain very well, and can be summarized with one sentence "it sucks"

A lot of people come to the US from other countries seeking treatment for their health conditions, perhaps it is because the treatment is far more advanced
I migrated to the US many years ago, raised a family, never had the need to seek welfare, but always worked verry hard to cover my family needs in every respect
In the US, the goverment is not capable of running anything successfully, not even the US Post Office, and I for sure wouldn't like the corrupted politicians to make decision on my health care.

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Just a thought here. Does anyone take into account that visiting a doctor actually costs a lot of money?

Doctors invest a lot in their practise, their knowledge etc. Just covering the costs of equipment, buildings etc make sure that even IF services are market driven they can never drop below a certain price. Simply because it costs that muc to keep a practise/hospital running.

That's why insurance is needed. because medical care needs to be ready to be used 24/7 365. Doing that is expensive and drives up the cost.

It's partly a market forces thing....but partly it's not. Things can never go below a certain price if they're market driven. That price is the costprice. And in medicine...the costprice is pretty damn high.

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Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

Do not forget the debts a lot of doctors have because of studies, rent on the location, staff they have to pay etc etc.

Buisiness is always more expensive than it seems.

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I just thought I'd address this issue of the costs of a doctors office. I have a lot of pets, and I've spent a lot of time in emergency veterinary clinics and regular veterinary clinics and the clinics of specialty veterinarians.

I have never seen a GP's office that was as well stocked as the average Vet clinic. A vet clinic usually has as large of a staff, a veterinarian has the same education expense, and vet tech has the same eduction as a as a hospital tech at the doctors not as much as a nurse but most GP's don't hire Rn's. The modern vet clinic also does in house surgery, and many are open 24 hours.

Why does my GP visit get billed for 4 times the cost of my veterinary visits? Because that is the rate the government allows them to charge. The govt is already the largest insurance provider and has rate setting power in the industry.

If my vet tried to charge what my doctor does I would find another vet and I have done so, as apparently did a lot of other people as the vet in question lowered his rates in order to keep his business.

This is the point and was alluded to with my reference to optional services I mentioned in my previous post. Everywhere in medicine that the government has not touched, everywhere where the haven't set the rate, prices remain low or are getting lower. Look at eye care, look at pet care look at anything not covered by the government plans and you will see reasonable costs and competition for customers.

Obviously you can't shop around for Emergency care but you should be able to once you are stable. People do shop for their cardiologist or other specialists now, they just shop based upon expertise without having to consider cost because the rate is controlled.

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

If my vet tried to charge what my doctor does I would find another vet and I have done so, as apparently did a lot of other people as the vet in question lowered his rates in order to keep his business.

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no offense, but with animals, you always have the option to have them put down. With dogs this is done regularly if they become so sick that there is no end to their suffering (fractured pelvis for example), or if they turn bad when they get old.

otoh if you are in real medical trouble, your family does not have the option (legally and morally) to have you put down. It's either treatment at whatever the cost, or a slow and agonizing death.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

You know, I hear a lot of complaining about how bad it will be, but people seem to ignore the fact that the concept works in every European nation, Canada, and wherever it is implemented.

The simple fact remains that
1) I pay less than an american
2) I have full coverage incl dental
3) Care is available to everyone
4) Care is good, available, when I need it, where I need it.

So explain to me again exactly how the US system is better?

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Bruno, where you are making your mistake is trying to convince them with the facts. Ideology trumps facts every time. :shrug: God forbid that we might have something akin to socialism. :eek: How can we devote most of our GNP to the military industrial complex if we were to divert a small percentage of those funds to the benefit of our entire population ?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

The government only pays. they don't say who gets what.

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Do you mean the existing ones or the planned ones? I suppose it doesn't matter. A plan that doesn't limit care in some way will go bankrupt or will be preyed upon by the unscrupulous.

Copays limit care either by having people not seek care for what they feel is a minor problem, or as a way to direct people away from more expensive ways of providing care. Waiting times work as a way of limiting care. Medication formularies are ways to limit more expensive meds. Requiring authorization for durable medical goods is a way to limit care. Some services are only reimbursable in the outpatient setting limits inpatient care. Not paying snake handlers for treatment limits care.

There is a cultural difference between the US and Europe. We have a lot of people who came here to escape bad government in one form or other. People who were told how to worship, escaped genocide, unjust imprisonment, etc. We also have a lot of people who came as a result of bad living conditions. With this, there is a long standing distrust of the government can do to someone. Our own government has done some things that has lead us to distrust it (ask the Chinese after WWII, or native Americans, Mormons in Utah...). Our view of government is heavily flavored by those experiences.

Add in the fact that there are plenty of groups that would like to control the behavior of others (both sides of the abortion debate, gay marriage, etc.) and we have ample reason to believe that this will be used to further the agendas of many special interests in the name of either"access to care" or "Cost efficiency".

We have good reason to be concerned about government becoming too involved with our personal lives. Vigilence is continuously required in the defence of personal liberties and rights.

Because of these concerns, we have to have these issuess raised or we will end up with a solution that is unworkable within the framework of American culture. Which is, as I have stated, different in many fundamental ways from that of European nations and Canada.

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Originally Posted by Leighton

I was unaware that the Constitution, the founding fathers ratified, guaranteed liberty/personal freedoms.

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The founding fathers held that a God given, inalienable right such as personal liberty was a "self-evident" truth. I guess they didn't think a truth that is self-evident needed any further guarantee.

I suppose the atheists are worried that guarantees from God won't be honored...

By the way, it's written in the Declaration of Independence, not The Constitution.

For those of you who support national health care, I hope you are following the Federal "Cash-4-Clunkers" program. One week in and already having problems.

And you want these people to manage your health care?:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao

:eek:

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Originally Posted by honedright

The founding fathers held that a God given, inalienable right such as personal liberty was a "self-evident" truth. I guess they didn't think a truth that is self-evident needed any further guarantee.

I suppose the atheists are worried that guarantees from God won't be honored...

By the way, it's written in the Declaration of Independence, not The Constitution.

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I know. The Declaration is not the law. The founding fathers wrote the Constitution and for whatever reason, did not see fit to grant us the inalienable rights espoused in the Declaration.

Interpret that as you will, but the past is the past.