Common courtesy doesn't equal political correctness or does it ?

Another thread where PC is put down got me to thinking.... where does common courtesy stop and political correctness begin ? I admire courteous and polite people very much. I tended to be brusque with telephone solicitors and others who call at the shop or even uninvited phone calls at home.

One of my co-workers became a great example for me of common courtesy. He is so friendly and polite to anyone who calls that I came to admire that and changed my demeanor since then. Remembering to treat people as I would like to be treated.

An amusing example came to mind in this quote taken from a broadcast on Jimmy Carter in the American Experience series on PBS. Here is the quote, bear with it as it is long but it is great IMO. :)

Doug Brinkley: There's that wonderful story of Miss Lillian when one reporter a woman from New York came down to Plains, and Miss Lillian greeted her and said, "Welcome to Plains. You know, it's so nice to see you. Would you like some lemonade? How was your journey, your dress is beautiful." You know, poring on the Southern hospitality. And the reporter jumped right in on Miss Lillian and said, "Now Miss Lillian, your son is running for president saying he'll never tell a lie. As a mother, are you telling me he's never told a lie?" She goes, "Oh well Jimmy tells white lies all the time." And the reporter said, well tell me what, what do you mean? What is a white lie?" And Miss Lillian said, "Well, remember when I said, welcome to Plains and how good it is to see you? That's a white lie."

Have you been prancing around in my mind again Jimmy? I was just about to start this same thread on the idea of good manners and common courtesy.

I was watching my children, particularly my oldest who is rather resistant to the idea of good manners. we say things like "Dont talk with your mouth full." "Say please and thank you" etc, etc. But today it occurred to me that while we were trying to teach them the actions of good manners we were not teaching the spirit or essence of common courtesy and good manners. So I will tell you what I told my children: The essence of good manners, and this is all you need to know, is consider others first.

As far as PC, I believe that can appear to be good manners but instead of stemming from a thoughtfulness of others it stems from a fear of what others might think of you.

I think many people have forgotten what common courtesy is. It doesn't take much to hold a door or something.

I think that in public I am a pretty courteous guy generally. How ever, I am prone to 'courtesy rage' that is, when I make the effort to help some one out and they can't be arsed to acknowledge it. Man that annoys me.

I am getting to be an old man who came of age in a different place and time. Here in this NY Times article is an example of what I consider a coarsening of our culture. Or maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy. :confused:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I am getting to be an old man who came of age in a different place and time. Here in this NY Times article is an example of what I consider a coarsening of our culture. Or maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy. :confused:

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I do agree with you but then I am an old fuddy duddy also

I don't see an intersection between common courtesy and "Political Correctness". I guess it depends on what you consider PC to be (assuming everyone understands courtesy, common or otherwise, which I basically equate with politeness and consideration of others).

I think the term PC equates to the act of adopting terminology that presumes your own personal political orientation and then promoting the idea that the use or non use (depending on the term in question) of that terminology is a form of bigotry. It is messing with the language and culture in a dishonest way to make any disagreement with your personal politics difficult to express without stirring up a lot of smoke and dust. Read 1984.

This has escalated beyond language (where it originated) to attitude and behavior. The Fort Hood shooter was only able to get where he was through a series of situations made possible by the fear of retribution that pervasive PC has created. No one wanted to be the first "bigot" (a career-threatening tag to be stuck with) even though the several situations that should have been been acted on had nothing to do with actual bigotry. "Diversity" and "multiculturalism" were the trump cards that blocked any proper response. PC kills. Not in theory but in observed fact.

The above is probably not a PC definition of PC.

Well, I'm still not sure what equates PC these days, but I think that for me, common courtesy SHOULD include what a lot of people consider political correctness. Because, at their base, they both seem to require what Mark was implying: think of other people and remember that they ARE people.

The problem is, people don't think about their words enough. Like the word "Jew." When used as a verb, then it carries with it a whole load of hurtful, bigoted meaning--and that, to me, is extremely incourteous. However, if I were to tell someone who used it that way that it wasn't a good word to use, I'd immediately be branded a "PC Police".

Asking that you treat other people with respect in word and deed is not, to me, anything worthy of a label, it's just the way human beings should act.
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Originally Posted by TexasBob

I don't see an intersection between common courtesy and "Political Correctness". I guess it depends on what you consider PC to be (assuming everyone understands courtesy, common or otherwise, which I basically equate with politeness and consideration of others).

I think the term PC equates to the act of adopting terminology that presumes your own personal political orientation and then promoting the idea that the use or non use (depending on the term in question) of that terminology is a form of bigotry. It is messing with the language and culture in a dishonest way to make any disagreement with your personal politics difficult to express without stirring up a lot of smoke and dust. Read 1984.

This has escalated beyond language (where it originated) to attitude and behavior. The Fort Hood shooter was only able to get where he was through a series of situations made possible by the fear of retribution that pervasive PC has created. No one wanted to be the first "bigot" (a career-threatening tag to be stuck with) even though the several situations that should have been been acted on had nothing to do with actual bigotry. "Diversity" and "multiculturalism" were the trump cards that blocked any proper response. PC kills. Not in theory but in observed fact.

The above is probably not a PC definition of PC.

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Some good points there Bob. Maybe common courtesy doesn't equal political correctness after all. My example of Lillian Carter was more what I was talking about. I could give some other examples but they wouldn't be politically correct. :)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Some good points there Bob. Maybe common courtesy doesn't equal political correctness after all. My example of Lillian Carter was more what I was talking about. I could give some other examples but they wouldn't be politically correct. :)

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I think Lillian Carter demonstrated that she was skilled enough to deal with Political Correctness. It is, after all, rooted in language so rhetorical skills can be a good countermeasure!

And another way of looking at things could be that those in a position to define what is politically correct do so in a way to make reasoned criticism or even constructive discussion *seem* to be a lack of common courtesy, or worse.

huh i find common courtesy to be a waste of time if im opposing something

politcal correct on the other hand is killing a lot of ppl and saying you didnt intend too

personal attacks is courtesy and i guess general would be politics
anyway there should be death penalty for not getting reelected :p

I personally don't think they have much to do with one another. At the same time, however, there's a fine line between the two. A contradictory statement in some ways, but hear me out.

Common courtesy is an accepted extension of manners and etiquette often influenced by cultural environment. Our current environment of "F you and F you, too" has brought common courtesy to virtual extinction, but it's definition remains the same, nonetheless. Common courtesy is not practiced, in my opinion, out of any sense of political correctness; it's practiced as a result of personal morals. The two coincide with one another in some instances, but are totally at odds with one another in others.

For instance, if I hold a door for someone, especially an older person, it's considered common courtesy. However, if I hold a door or do a favor for someone specifically because they're a different race or ethnicity, that's political correctness. The former means I'm simply being courteous, the latter means I'm doing it to appease a different social or ethnic group. Here, we have an identical action that's being done for different reasons. I see it all the time.

Knowing this may be controversial, I won't go into too many different examples, but political correctness is often exercised out of racism and prejudice without the person even knowing it. If I make derogatory comments about someone of my own racial or ethnic group but am hesitant to make comments about someone from a different one SIMPLY because they're different than myself, no matter what that person did, that's the destructive behavior that's known as political correctness. In some cases, PC is called for and understood. In others, it's self-destructive, self-hating rhetoric that can only be surmised as prejudicial preference.

As an aside, I'm a very politically incorrect person. You know why I'm considered that? It's because I treat everyone equally. These days, treating everyone the same, with no preferencial bias, somehow seems to equate with racism and discrimination. I'm sick of it and won't change my ways, but that seems to be the manner in which I'm treated these days.

Long live common courtesy! To hell with political correctness.

I once read that politeness and courtesy are the glue that holds our social fabric together. I liked that and it made a lot of sense to me. Regardless of my surrounding environment I am trying to practice politeness and courtesy. Maybe it will rub off.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I once read that politeness and courtesy are the glue that holds our social fabric together. I liked that and it made a lot of sense to me. Regardless of my surrounding environment I am trying to practice politeness and courtesy. Maybe it will rub off.

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I only wish more people did the same. Regardless of how rude some people are, I still try to treat people with dignity. Notice I used the word "dignity" and not "respect". If someone disrespects me, I find it nearly impossible to treat them with any respect back. I can get nasty, no doubt, but you'd be surprised how a little courtesy goes a long way.

i think common courtesy is fast becoming something of the past. a lot of people just do not care about their fellow man/woman(PC), everyone is getting more rude and some do not even thank you if you hold the door open for them. i live in the south and holding the door used to be done all the time, not anymore.
if you want to see real rude people, just look around you the next time you are at a nice dining place and see how many people have a cell phone stuck to their heads and you are forced to listen to a conversation whether you want to or not. going out to eat used to be a pleasure and relaxing, but now it is more like setting in a phone booth:rant:

There's, in my limited view, a significant difference between common courtesy and the almost weasely avoiding of any statement in any subject, or with too many evasive words, trying to avoid the expected triple boneshattering fracture your brushing feather might incur.

Usually one way traffic too.

If using the word "black" is sometimes "wrong", why is "white" never an issue?


Brings back memories of university days: As a student I had a job of being supervisor in the computer lab. One of the rules: No food or drinks at the computers, we have cafeterias for that. Violation of the rule: You get kicked out for the rest of the day. In general I'd kick out a few people per week. There was one student I kicked out too, drinking coffee and eating a sandwich at a computer. "YOU DISCRIMINATE ME!!!". Kid from Turkish descent, playing the race card on me. A few interested students were following the proceedings. I made some jaws drop by saying "Yes, I indeed discriminate....". The addressed student was wide-eyed and mouth fell open. "....I discriminate between people that follow the rules and that don't. So please give me your student ID so I can write down the number and get out. I'm happy to call some security too, your call.".

This guy realized his playing of the race card backfired on him and the other students smiled about it. He was nice and played along and since then he was always friendly to me, and I to him of course, whenever we met.

As a white guy, you're sometimes in a disadvantage when people want to play the race card. This time I solved it by being totally un-PC. :)

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Originally Posted by 59caddy

i think common courtesy is fast becoming something of the past. a lot of people just do not care about their fellow man/woman(PC), everyone is getting more rude and some do not even thank you if you hold the door open for them. i live in the south and holding the door used to be done all the time, not anymore.
if you want to see real rude people, just look around you the next time you are at a nice dining place and see how many people have a cell phone stuck to their heads and you are forced to listen to a conversation whether you want to or not. going out to eat used to be a pleasure and relaxing, but now it is more like setting in a phone booth:rant:

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You could, courteously (is that a word? :)) of course, get up and nicely ask the person to not speak too loudly on the phone. People nowadays seem scared to ask someone to keep others in mind. Not always necessary.

edit: My friend was doing his law PhD in European law and as part of it had to teach some course to freshmen. He was always walking around the lecture room and knew that a phone would go off. While the owner was digging for the phone, my friend walks up next to them and when the phone was found, he'd take over and answer the thing. Being very friendly he explained the caller that the callee was at this very moment in a class taught by him and unfortunately unavailable, but that he was happy to pass a message along to the callee who was sitting there with a red buoy as a head. :)

Many people would dive into pockets and purses/bags to switch off their phones. And next lectures, people would walk in while switching off their phones. Very educational.

My friend was being very nice, and a total smartass prick at the same time. A reason I like him so much. :)

As the OP I wish I hadn't drawn any kind of parallel between courtesy and PC. I wish I had titled the thread Courtesy, common or uncommon ? Wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which fills up first. :)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which fills up first. :)

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I heard that one a little different. The one I heard had one less "P" and one extra "H" in it.:D

Since it is my thread that sprouted this conversation, do you feel that I was not being courteous with my post? I don't feel I should have to explain my intended P.C. but for clarification I was trying to keep the conversation on topic from the get go, I apparently failed....

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Originally Posted by detroyt

Since it is my thread that sprouted this conversation, do you feel that I was not being courteous with my post? I don't feel I should have to explain my intended P.C. but for clarification I was trying to keep the conversation on topic from the get go, I apparently failed....

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I was wondering if that was the impetus for this thread.

I personally did not think that you were rude or discourteous in the least. I just found it sad what a little pressure does to us and makes us be overly careful when it isn't necessary. An example in my own life I was helped by the city the other day by a very nice black gentleman. He was the only black man in that office. His name is Dean. So are two other men in that office named Dean. I had to call back to the office to speak to Dean. The receptionist said which Dean. As I was saying the black man I found myself choking on the word black. It's a harmless word to describe the man who was helping me but there is so much pressure from the PC crowd that I found myself second guessing a purely innocent description.
PC is the tool by which certain groups use to put pressure on a certain segment of population to move them in a desired direction by that group. It is the opposite of free will. Free will allows you to see and move as you see fit and it requires a measure of responsibility and maturity so that one can be thoughtful and courteous of others without the harmful soul crushing pressure of political correctness.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I once read that politeness and courtesy are the glue that holds our social fabric together.

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Might be from Judith Martin (Miss Manners) -- one of my favorites!

I think that the truly courteous person doesn't really think too much about 'political correctness', they don't really need to.
What is referred to as being 'politically correct' usually just means that you avoid causing offence by engaging your brain before opening your mouth.
My late father died before the term 'political correctness' was coined and yet you could say that he was. Despite coming up through the ranks in the Royal Air Force I never heard him need to swear either.

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Originally Posted by detroyt

Since it is my thread that sprouted this conversation, do you feel that I was not being courteous with my post? I don't feel I should have to explain my intended P.C. but for clarification I was trying to keep the conversation on topic from the get go, I apparently failed....

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Not at all. I opened up a separate thread because I didn't want to hijack yours. Just trying to be courteous. :)

"The Fort Hood shooter was only able to get where he was through a series of situations made possible by the fear of retribution that pervasive PC has created. No one wanted to be the first "bigot" (a career-threatening tag to be stuck with) even though the several situations that should have been been acted on had nothing to do with actual bigotry. "Diversity" and "multiculturalism" were the trump cards that blocked any proper response. PC kills. Not in theory but in observed fact."

I've said this before elsewhere: I cannot fathom how some folks have been able to determine exactly what motivated/prompted the Ft. Hood shooter to do what he did, absent having anywhere near a full set of facts. To claim to know what led to Hasan doing what he did is just, IMO, naive, although it seems to fits some folks' political agenda. The truth is we don't presently know anywhere near enough of the actual facts to be in a position to draw any conclusions. While I am not ruling out the theory cited above versus this guy having just mentally snapped, claiming to know what really happened at this early stage of the investigation is irresponsible.

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

I cannot fathom how some folks have been able to determine exactly what motivated/prompted the Ft. Hood shooter to do what he did, absent having anywhere near a full set of facts. To claim to know what led to Hasan doing what he did is just, IMO, naive, although it seems to fits some folks' political agenda. The truth is we don't presently know anywhere near enough of the actual facts to be in a position to draw any conclusions. While I am not ruling out the theory cited above versus this guy having just mentally snapped, claiming to know what really happened at this early stage of the investigation is irresponsible.

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See many comments, including ...

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Originally Posted by http://dakotabeacon.com/entry/mark_steyn_jihad_and_the_scandal_of_the_tragedy_of _diversity/

Two joint terrorism task forces became aware almost a year ago that Major Hasan was in regular email contact with Anwar al-Awlaqi, the American-born but now Yemeni-based cleric who served as imam to three of the 9/11 hijackers and supports all-out holy war against the United States. But the expert analysts in the Pentagon determined that this lively correspondence was consistent with Major Hasan’s “research interests”, so there was no need to worry.. That’s America: Technologically superior, money no object (not one but two “joint terrorism task forces” stumbled across him). Yet no action was taken.On the other hand, who needs surveillance operations and intelligence budgets? Major Hasan was entirely upfront about who he was. He put it on his business card: “SOA.” As in “Soldier of Allah” ...

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Originally Posted by http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/

I am also tired of the asinine questioning, “Why did he do this?”—as if we are to be perplexed that Hasan the deep philosopher inexplicably committed mayhem. We have reached real Bathos, when talking heads ponder whether trying to contact al Qaeda is really that bad, or whether yelling “Allahu Akbar” as one blows apart human flesh is really an act connected to radical Islam.

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Originally Posted by http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2FjZjA5YjMxYmM2ZmNhZjQ3ODQ4MzQ0OWVmYmFhZjE=&w= MQ==

Hasan went a different way. He opted to give a bizarre PowerPoint presentation in which he defended suicide bombing, explaining that non-believers should be beheaded, be burned alive, and have boiling oil poured down their throats (presumably not in that order). He argued that all Muslims should be discharged from the military.

One slide concluded: “We love death more then [sic] you love life!”

According to the Post, the medical staff in attendance was deeply disturbed by the incident. But there’s apparently no record of anyone’s reporting it to authorities. That would be insensitive and discriminatory.

The following year, intelligence officials discovered that Hasan had been sending e-mails to Anwar al-Aulaqi, a prominent American-born radical cleric now based in Yemen with ties to al-Qaeda.

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And there are many more "subtle clues". Google them yourself. But perhaps we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that this "Soldier of Allah" who wanted to behead, burn, (etc.) non-believers, who was in long-term contact with the enemy we are at war with was dangerous. It is probably just a coincidence that he acted in perfect concert with his oft-stated beliefs. Yes, lets not pretend we have any reason to draw conclusions.

If we had to restrict ourselves to your standard for drawing inferences, reaching conclusions, and making decisions we would never even get around to tying our shoes in the morning -- why bother? Maybe some crazy stressed-out American GI will just "snap" and mow us down for no apparent reason. Life sure is a tragic mystery. Better not offend anyone. You know how sensitive people can be.

"If we had to restrict ourselves to your standard for drawing inferences, reaching conclusions, and making decisions we would never even get around to tying our shoes in the morning -- why bother? Maybe some crazy stressed-out American GI will just "snap" and mow us down for no apparent reason. Life sure is a tragic mystery. Better not offend anyone. You know how sensitive people can be."

You know-you're right. What the heck was I thinking. In fact, why even gather the all the facts? Let's not even bother with a trial-what a waste of time that would be. Just execute him and while we're at it, let's just kick all Muslims out of the military. They just can't be trusted. And while we're at it, let's purge our military of the Jews too. Although it may be politically incorrect to say so, we all really know their real allegiance is to Israel, not the USA. And I'm having some second thoughts about the blacks, too.

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

"If we had to restrict ourselves to your standard for drawing inferences, reaching conclusions, and making decisions we would never even get around to tying our shoes in the morning -- why bother? Maybe some crazy stressed-out American GI will just "snap" and mow us down for no apparent reason. Life sure is a tragic mystery. Better not offend anyone. You know how sensitive people can be."

You know-you're right. What the heck was I thinking. In fact, why even gather the all the facts? Let's not even bother with a trial-what a waste of time that would be. Just execute him and while we're at it, let's just kick all Muslims out of the military. They just can't be trusted. And while we're at it, let's purge our military of the Jews too. Although it may be politically incorrect to say so, we all really know their real allegiance is to Israel, not the USA. And I'm having some second thoughts about the blacks, too.

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I think you are missing the point. There were plenty of things that could have been done to prevent Hasan from acting as he did. It's not as if there were no warnings.

BTW, it was Hasan who proposed removing all the Muslims from the military, not me.

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Originally Posted by TexasBob

I think you are missing the point. There were plenty of things that could have been done to prevent Hasan from acting as he did. It's not as if there were no warnings.

BTW, it was Hasan who proposed removing all the Muslims from the military, not me.

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Billy didn't miss the point. His specialty is trying to make you look like an ass to bolster his argument. Just have a little fun with it or don't respond.

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Originally Posted by JMS

Billy didn't miss the point. His specialty is trying to make you look like an ass to bolster his argument. Just have a little fun with it or don't respond.

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:HJ Or better yet I was courteous enough to start another thread on that topic. So don't hijack this thread ....be courteous and take it to this thread here and you'll be on topic. :)

"Billy didn't miss the point. His specialty is trying to make you look like an ass to bolster his argument. Just have a little fun with it or don't respond."

Gee Mark, I had no idea my methods were so devious...I'd never try to make you look like an ass. Really. I mean it. No kidding.

"I think you are missing the point. There were plenty of things that could have been done to prevent Hasan from acting as he did. It's not as if there were no warnings.

BTW, it was Hasan who proposed removing all the Muslims from the military, not me."

Perhaps it didn't come thru, but what I meant to say isn't that there may have been warnings that were ignored, possibly for all the wrong reasons as you suggest. What I am saying is that too many folks are drawing inferences and conclusions before all the facts are known. If it turns out warnings were ignored because of PC-then that needs to be addressed/fixed. But from what I've heard so far, investigations were undertaken in relation to the concerns that were raised at the time, but were dismissed. Let's take a look at why, and if mistakes were made, correct them.
btw--where does the info come from when you wrote "it was Hasan who proposed removing all the Muslims from the military"? hadn't seen this before

It is a shame that sometimes you have to be so careful but I find sometimes your better off just being careful.

I live right next to Detroit I work in Detroit and I play in Detroit, it is truly one of the most culturally diverse places in the U.S. ( I'm a first generation American for that matter). when I am amongst friends I don't need to be careful at all of what I say but put in the right situation and the wrong words can be deadly. Many of the things you hear about Detroit are total B.S. but even people who feel as comfortable as I do in the city still need to know their boundaries.

I don't know anybody in these forums personally but I do have a great respect for you all. Nobody here has ever given me reason to think poorly of them and I would like for everybody to feel the same way about me so I feel it it safer to tread lightly because the information found here is invaluable and I see no value in upsetting anybody here.

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

"I think you are missing the point. There were plenty of things that could have been done to prevent Hasan from acting as he did. It's not as if there were no warnings.

BTW, it was Hasan who proposed removing all the Muslims from the military, not me."

Perhaps it didn't come thru, but what I meant to say isn't that there may have been warnings that were ignored, possibly for all the wrong reasons as you suggest. What I am saying is that too many folks are drawing inferences and conclusions before all the facts are known. If it turns out warnings were ignored because of PC-then that needs to be addressed/fixed. But from what I've heard so far, investigations were undertaken in relation to the concerns that were raised at the time, but were dismissed. Let's take a look at why, and if mistakes were made, correct them.
btw--where does the info come from when you wrote "it was Hasan who proposed removing all the Muslims from the military"? hadn't seen this before

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You are rude dude. Start you own thread on the topic.

pardon the intrusions....

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

pardon the intrusions....

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No worries. Thanks for the consideration.

I wonder, if this thread was started 50, or 100 years ago, would people say 'these days kids have no respect . . . '

Funny, maybe common courtesy has evolved like everything else. I would hope I could give the old timers a run for their money in terms of courtesy, but who knows.

It's all about perception.