How would you react if...

So your a gun enthusiast and you consider yourself a real pistolero. You go to the range often and consider your self a real dead-eye. You also have considered what you would do if someone broke into your house and that you would not hesitate to defend your family and your property.

So you go to the range today and you have a pistol and you buy your two boxes of ammo and go inside and crank out the target to 15 yards and as you finish firing the 6th round all of a sudden from out of nowhere, from inside the range to the side some dude pops out with a gun in hand and starts firing at you.

So what are you going to do? He's already started firing at you so if he's a decent shot you've already been hit. How many seconds will you hesitate before firing? How many more rounds will you take? Will you have the presence of mind to immediately seek cover or just stand there? Will you just panic and do nothing or fire wildly and miss totally? What if you have a 6 shot revolver? Think you can unload and reload under that pressure?

You see you were part of an experiment.They weren't real bullets.

So now transpose that to an incident where your at home one dark winter night and your on your computer and you hear breaking glass and you just happen to have a gun in a locked box in that room. You hear footsteps, its dark in the hall. How long is it going to take you to retrieve the weapon under pressure? have you practiced doing that? You enter the hallway and you see a dark figure and can see he's holding something but you can't tell what it is but you think its a gun. How long will it take you to decide what to do. He's in the dark and is moving you came out out of a lit room and are framed by the light and stand out like a target at a shooting range. Your also standing still in total panic. He sees you and your gun and starts firing. Now its real bullets whizzing by. So how would you react and how long would it take you to react? Think you'd be a dead-eye now?

Just food for thought.

With the exception of the last paragraph I've been through training like that just that we used rubber bullets in a .357 propelled by the primer alone. If your hit within 10 yards or so it hurts like hell.

After some responses I'll tell you what highly trained Federal Agents did.

No one can answer this question with any certainty unless they have been under fire before.

I am curious Sir. Is this thread intended to illuminate our possible problem areas in home defense so that we may endeavor to improve or is it intended to suggest that home protection is best left to the experts so why even bother trying to protect your family and yourself under such possible situations?

both scenes are a tough call...but on the first one, if i get a chance to see someone pointing a gun at me and firing and i am able he/she is going to get it right back, if i am able to fire and have not been injured. if the person was not shooting live rounds, then to bad. do not play games with people with weapons in their hands.
the second one where someone has broken into my house is different as i will
hopefully fire on them first and i intend to take them out, not just injure. i keep a 44 magnum short barrel by my beside. i also have other weapons throughout the house.
but i can bet others will have different views on this subject. but after having one house broken into and have been fired upon, i do not take it lightly.
also i would like to praise anyone willing to put on a police uniform and wear that weapon and badge and be a target for all the crazies out there. my hats off to you and your brothers and sisters doing a great job out there..

I am at work now with a 357 mag on my person. At the computer at home the same gun is within reach. By my lazy boy chair is a 40 Sig and by my bedside a 10mm glock. Woe to the miscreant who trespasses in my space.

How did they do the first experiment? I can't see them giving the person being tested live rounds.

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Originally Posted by Pete_S

How did they do the first experiment? I can't see them giving the person being tested live rounds.

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If they did they only did it the one time. :D

The idea of the thread is to do two things; 1-think about tactics if you have to use a weapon and 2-make you think about your ability to function under extreme stress in a life or death situation.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The idea of the thread is to do two things; 1-think about tactics if you have to use a weapon and 2-make you think about your ability to function under extreme stress in a life or death situation.

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In that case I like it!

I said after some posts I would tell you how trained people responded. By the way the example of the shooting range wasn't a true event. I made that up just to get your reaction to it.

So here is the scenario. I'm at this weapons school given by a Federal Agency and the exercise puts two people in a car and they have to pull over another vehicle and perform a felony traffic stop and apprehend the two bad guys inside. The first to have to do it was a very experienced individual who is also a range officer. In the car with him is a supervisor also with alot of experience who happens to be a female. Everyone is armed with a .357 revolver with rubber bullets powered by the primer only. So they pull the car over and order the two individuals out of the vehicle after having them show their hands and get out and begin backing up towards the good guys. All of a sudden the two bad guys pull out their weapons and start firing at the good guys. The range officer drops to his knees and gets over by his open car door and returns fire. The supervisor dives for the floorboard and starts screaming.

In the second scenario our range officer and I decided to try the same as the original range scenario I started off with. This was an outdoor range at our office during our regular qualification. Now the people knew something was up because we gave them the ammo which we never do and they were told they would experience a traning scenario. So we put them at the 25 yard line with a baracade to provide cover. I was off to the side and as they were shooting at the target I started shooting at them. I had already hit all 4 of them at least twice before they even realized what was happening and then some hit the dirt and started returning fire from a prone position, some started firing just standing there and some used the baracade for cover and some just stood there in the open.

With each group of people the result was pretty much the same.

So what is the moral of the story if you are in an actual situation?

1-the more you train the better you will react. If you rely on common sense and reaction you will fail. In a panic situation you react plain and simple . If you have trained the more you have trained the more you will fall back to your training reaction automatically because your brain shuts down in such situation. There have been incidents where police have been killed in shootouts and they have found spent casings in the officers hands. Why? Because when they trained they didn't want to pick up brass so the put them in their hands and pockets and in a crisis they reverted to their training good or bad without thinking.

2-Always be aware of your surroundings and keep the total picture. In panic situations you develop tunnel vision and only see the single threat in front of you. If there is another bad guy you will never see him coming.

3-If you are ever in such situation always look for cover no matter what it is even if its in your home.

Great read and great thread first of all...yes, I'm a fellow gun nut and accuracy advocate. Sounds like an awesome experiment to test your "true grit". I'm sure it would be eye opening. I always try to stay mentally prepared, but the mind goes lax if you don't keep sharp intentionally. I have noticed in the past 3-5 years that it has become more and more dangerous to travel in the U.S. I've now come to the point that I will NOT travel to a State that is not firearm friendly due to several situations that I have been in with my wife in these past couple years. One vacation situation in particular I had left my CCW at the hotel due to the salty air/heat/sweat causing it to rust within hours (Taurus 1911, great shooter, but needs some sort of coating before returning to my CCW). We were on the beach in southern Texas and was confronted by a person who was obviously "speeding" at about 2am. I bluffed my way out of the situation, but if he had decided to call my bluff... I have "what-if'ed" that situation many times and simply will not go unarmed. I have since purchased a "baby glock" in 9mm for my CCW and now understand why so many swear by them. It is the most accurate small pistol that I own. I want the same pistol in .357 sig.

I agree with your "moral of the story", more people should run drills on how to handle car jackings & home invasions. I can't remember the exact movie, but it had John Trivolta in it: Chance favors the prepared mind.

I would like to be able to say that I would do everything right. But I have just enough training (very little) to realise that when the sh!t hit the fan I would freeze. It's just a question of for how long. After that I know I would have to cope with things like massive adrenilin rush, tunnel vision and other sensory depravation. On top of all that is my god awful aim. All this tells me that a weapon for my self defence is not going to do much good.

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Originally Posted by JMS

No one can answer this question with any certainty unless they have been under fire before.

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Gospel truth right here. I find it funny how many people talk a good game and have never been in this situation. 1 trip to Afghanistan and 1 trip to Iraq taught me that.

ndw76, honesty is a virtue. Practice is the only way to etch into your brain how to react in such a situation. In most instances, getting out is the best situation anyway. Most all training is to get to cover first if at all possible, you'll then have time (hopefully) to assess what the heck is going on & how do i get out of it. Having and knowing how to use a firearm just increases your odds on getting out of the situation.

Before the grandson reached the curious stage, stashing firearms around the house in different rooms wasn't a problem, but now it is. We have all been educating him the difference in real and play guns, and I have taken him out with me to see how "dangerous" a real gun is & to respect them. Still, he's a curious boy & I can't just stash one in each room within easy reach of say the sofa in the living room. Anyone have suggestions? Locked boxes aren't the answer IMO, I have safes for that...

In the second scenario, if the rest of the house was dark, the first thing I would have done is turn the light off, you don't want to go silhouetting yourself for the assailant. And my house is confined enough that I would be reaching for my knife, not a gun.

I wish it was easier to get a firearms licence here in Australia, I envy you US shooters.

Funny you mentioning reaching for a knife...I have a sword rack over my computer, just wasn't going to mention it. The one one the top has no "war" meaning...it's a polishing project. Time allowing, I do have two safes of goodies that are very shooter friendly in this room as well.:D
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I taught this back in the early 80's in Denver for some of the DPD....
Stats say that we have started to grow lax in our instinctual Fight/Flight reflexes...
About 80% of Americans will freeze given an unexpected stimulus, about 17% will run and 3% will react to the threat... Training improves those numbers...
We were only trying at that time to get the officers to at least try for cover and reach for their weapon. Even if that meant they tucked down into a crouch and they covered their weapon with their hand we considered that a pass...

Honestly until you have been shot at in an unexpected situation you just don't know how you will react, you can try and train for it, and hope to God your body takes over when your brain freezes...

Also those of you that are Military and LEO's, how you are while in uniform is different then how you are in your down time...In uniform you are more ready, you are in at least Condition Yellow at all times... Sometimes, it can actually be harder for you to go from Condition Green to Condition Red then it can for a true civilian... Remember Condition Red just means react that could just be to RUN !!!!

One of the biggest things I teach in Rape/Street Defense classes is DO NOT be afraid to RUN AWAY!!!! To many times our brain talks our instincts out of reacting, trust those neck hairs, if it feels like a threat it probably is...

Interesting reading guys.I just have a question, is the situation in the US really as bad as you guys describe? I meen a lot of you being somewhat gun nuts and all..Its just hard to imagine for an innocent norwegian what its like to live a place where you need firearms to keep your family safe..

BTW if you shot a criminal scumbag that entered your home in my country, even if he was armed, you would get several years in prison.
Hmmm, maby my country isn't so much better after all:thinking:




Kristoffer

Perspective is key Kristoffer. From my point of view of course. :D

I've lived in the US shortly before (bay area) and visited many times (a lot to upstate NY as well) and will be moving there again in a few weeks. I get the feeling some people view the right to bear arms as the duty to bear arms.

The place in general is not unsafe, it's as good or bad as you'd feel in many European destinations. Of course you wouldn't want to go to specific areas, but that's the same in some bad neighbourhoods here too.

All that said, I do have an interest in firearms and would like to take the opportunity of living in the US to properly learn firing guns, get good instruction and the whole deal. I will need to read into gun law though, from what I saw CA laws won't allow non-immigrant aliens to own a gun. So that means waiting for the greencard to come through I guess, if that happens. :)

Things are maybe different in a big world than we have here in Scandinavia.

I have to handle and practise various kinds of weapons, guns and ammo stuff at my work. Have also my own personal Glock 17 stored in my work area. However i wouldn't ever even dream of taking guns at home.

We have bad places to go here also, but i've never felt that i needed a gun or any kind of weapon to get out of the situation.

Or maybe this is just sort of the bird's nest.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I taught this back in the early 80's in Denver for some of the DPD....
Stats say that we have started to grow lax in out instinctual Fight/Flight reflexes...
About 80% of Americans will freeze given an unexpected stimulus, about 17% will run and 3% will react to the threat... Training improves those numbers...
We were only trying at that time to get the officers to at least try for cover and reach for their weapon. Even if that meant they tucked down into a crouch and they covered their weapon with their hand we considered that a pass...

Honestly until you have been shot at in an unexpected situation you just don't know how you will react, you can try and train for it, and hope to God your body takes over when your brain freezes...

Also those of you that are Military and LEO's, how you are while in uniform is different then how you are in your down time...In uniform you are more ready, you are in at least Condition Yellow at all times... Sometimes, it can actually be harder for you to go from Condition Green to Condition Red then it can for a true civilian... Remember Condition Red just means react that could just be to RUN !!!!

One of the biggest things I teach in Rape/Street Defense classes is DO NOT be afraid to RUN AWAY!!!! To many times our brain talks our instincts out of reacting, trust those neck hairs, if it feels like a threat it probably is...

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That's why for LEOs anyway you have to train all the time. You simply can't rely on your brain to tell you what to do it must be instinctive. Also many LEOs do the same job day in and day out and it all becomes routine and they become complacent and its that day they should have stayed home because they feel crummy with the flue and they're wearing extra clothing and the crisis arrives and they are not prepared for it and many pay for that dearly.