In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue...

Since its St Paddy's day I thought I would ask this question.

Back in the day people thought if you traveled too far over the ocean you would fall off and be eaten by terrible monsters. So why did they believe that? Also how about if you traveled too far on land, what would happen to you? Also come to think of it how did they know where they were on the ocean in those days. Maybe when they fell off they knew they went too far.

Maybe its all propaganda fed to us to lull us into complacency. Maybe they had modern cities and airplanes and space travel and along came global warming and destroyed those advanced civilizations and all those people, why they...Hey this question isn't my idea Cousin Festus wants to know though.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Since its St Paddy's day I thought I would ask this question.

Back in the day people thought if you traveled too far over the ocean you would fall off and be eaten by terrible monsters. So why did they believe that? Also how about if you traveled too far on land, what would happen to you? Also come to think of it how did they know where they were on the ocean in those days. Maybe when they fell off they knew they went too far.

Maybe its all propaganda fed to us to lull us into complacency. Maybe they had modern cities and airplanes and space travel and along came global warming and destroyed those advanced civilizations and all those people, why they...Hey this question isn't my idea Cousin Festus wants to know though.

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thebigspendur,

A lot of the story connected with Columbus and his voyages is pure hokum. The idea that you would fall off the edge of the earth was one that was only held by the uneducated.

Scholars and scientists of Columbus's day didn't oppose his plan because they thought his voyage would result in his expedition falling off the edge of the earth. They knew the earth was round by that time. They opposed Columbus because they correctly assumed that he had miscalculated the diameter of the earth, which would make his voyage longer than he anticipated. And it was. His crew almost mutinied because they were running out of food and fresh water.

As for knowing where you were...Ancient mariners used a number of different methods to determine where they were. Initially, they simply stayed close to land and used landmarks. Later they used astrolabes to determine their latitude.

It wasn't until the 18th century that mariners were finally able to determine their longitude. John Harrison developed a timepiece that would keep accurate time in seafaring conditions. See this link: John Harrison and the Longitude problem : Royal Observatory & history of astronomy : Astronomy fact files : Astronomy & time : Explore online : NMM

I hope this helps...

I watched a documentary recently on how they eventually did calculate the Earth's diameter. A team of French scientists travelled to Peru. After years of scaling the mountains and triangulating measurements between markers they painstakingly put on the peaks of each mountain in a designated range of topography, they were able to calculate one degree of longitude, I believe, and compare that to an existing measurement. Then they solved for x and confirmed Newton's hypothesis about the Earth being more grapefruit-shaped than spherical. That's why they travelled to the equator.

During their trip, Charles Marie de La Condamine discovered not only rubber, but pioneered the Metric system.

But most importantly of all, he learned the importance of friendship.

(I made that last one up)

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Since its St Paddy's day I thought I would ask this question.

Back in the day people thought if you traveled too far over the ocean you would fall off and be eaten by terrible monsters. So why did they believe that?

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Probably for the same reasons that people today think that shaving with a straight razor is dangerous or that second hand smoke is dangerous or that anyone named abdul is dangerous.If people are told something often enough, even a lie, it will become the truth to them :(

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Back in the day people thought if you traveled too far over the ocean you would fall off and be eaten by terrible monsters. So why did they believe that? Also how about if you traveled too far on land, what would happen to you? Also come to think of it how did they know where they were on the ocean in those days. Maybe when they fell off they knew they went too far.

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Euclidean Geometry.

Your welcome.
David

I guess they believed it because sometimes people went off on these voyages and were never seen again.

There are also weird things that happen at sea, storms, giant creatures they'd never have seen before, St Elmos fire...

So the sailors that made it back would have been telling these stories about what they'd seen, and probably embellishing some :), and these rumours of the edge of the earth and creatures from the pits of Hell would have started.

And then people would start believing that those who didnt come back had been taken by these creatures, or fallen off the edge of the earth.

What do you mean the earth is ROUND?!?!? Sacrilege! Burn him, burn him.

Please pass this onto Cousin Festus and ask him to join me in membership of this worthy club: The Flat Earth Society
:)

Claiming the earth is flat was probably just stories seamen told to ignorant landlubbers. The fact that the earth is round was known already in the ancient Greece.

On those times there were few methods to determine ships position. They could find out the latitude (north-south position from any reference point that been agreed beforehand) observing stars with various devices and comparing it to star maps. Longitude (east-west) was more complicated and there was no fool proof method before decent chronometer was innovated. Determining ships speed was probably how they tried to guess their east/west position. Only way you could even somehow find out the speed was using hand log and/or observing current/wind speeds and directions.
Also marine charts were totally different than today. They were very primitive and inaccurate and used several different projections with various reference points (nowadays equator and Greenwich UK).

Mariners of today have it much more difficult. You can no more lie to your wife of being caught by a sea monster if coming back home gets little late.

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Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

But most importantly of all, he learned the importance of friendship.

(I made that last one up)

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:rofl2: Or cribbed it off the last sentence of practically every summary note for kids' fiction in the library catalog. (I catalog some of those, among other things ... I know too well whereof I speak.)

~Rich

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Originally Posted by Stubear

I guess they believed it because sometimes people went off on these voyages and were never seen again.

There are also weird things that happen at sea, storms, giant creatures they'd never have seen before, St Elmos fire...

So the sailors that made it back would have been telling these stories about what they'd seen, and probably embellishing some :), and these rumours of the edge of the earth and creatures from the pits of Hell would have started.

And then people would start believing that those who didnt come back had been taken by these creatures, or fallen off the edge of the earth.

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What he said :thinking:

Jordan

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Originally Posted by AussiePostie

Probably for the same reasons that people today think that shaving with a straight razor is dangerous or that second hand smoke is dangerous or that anyone named abdul is dangerous.If people are told something often enough, even a lie, it will become the truth to them :(

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Actually, there is good clinical and scientific evidence that second hand smoke is unhealthy.

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Originally Posted by bigstick

Actually, there is good clinical and scientific evidence that second hand smoke is unhealthy.

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You have apparentlly not read the WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATIONS own study on this subject- Their CONCLUSION, the results of the W.H.O study on ETS were"statistically insignificant" and there are more REAL scientific studies that reach the same conclusions. Please go to DR. M.SIEGELS blogspot "the rest of the story" as an advocate of tobacco control for 30 years even he cannot believe the junk science being used to back up smoking bans these days.

ETS is annoying,irratating and smelly to non-smokers,but it is not dangerous.:OT

Back on topic, I have never been into ships, did a little research,wow I was surprised at how small those ships were. Defineatly a brave bunch of men who would cross the atlantic in one. I would have been a coast hugger for sure :).

a great book that explains this very topic (and a lot more) is
The Coming Of Age Of The Milky Way by Timothy Ferris
i am not a huge reader really but this one is very interesting and seriously explains all your questions quite well without getting so in depth that i got bored, which is important to me :mace:

BTW you can get used copies online for 1 cent plus shipping so its hard to argue with that lol

they did not calculate the LON very well or have any real accurate way of doing this but for the LAT they had a device called a sextant (Sextant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) A sextant is an instrument generally used to measure the altitude of a celestial object above the horizon. Making this measurement is known as sighting the object, shooting the object, or taking a sight. The angle, and the time when it was measured, can be used to calculate a position line on a nautical or aeronautical chart. A common use of the sextant is to sight the sun at noon to find one's latitude. See celestial navigation for more discussion. Held horizontally, the sextant can be used to measure the angle between any two objects, such as between two lighthouses, which will, similarly, allow for calculation of a position on a chart.

Here's the link to the WHO website:
WHO | Second-hand tobacco smoke

As I read it, it doesn't say what you said it says. See?
Don't know where you got your info on this

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Originally Posted by AussiePostie

You have apparentlly not read the WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATIONS own study on this subject- Their CONCLUSION, the results of the W.H.O study on ETS were"statistically insignificant" and there are more REAL scientific studies that reach the same conclusions. Please go to DR. M.SIEGELS blogspot "the rest of the story" as an advocate of tobacco control for 30 years even he cannot believe the junk science being used to back up smoking bans these days.

ETS is annoying,irratating and smelly to non-smokers,but it is not dangerous.:OT

Back on topic, I have never been into ships, did a little research,wow I was surprised at how small those ships were. Defineatly a brave bunch of men who would cross the atlantic in one. I would have been a coast hugger for sure :).

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Originally Posted by BAMARACING8

they did not calculate the LON very well or have any real accurate way of doing this but for the LAT they had a device called a sextant (Sextant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) A sextant is an instrument generally used to measure the altitude of a celestial object above the horizon. Making this measurement is known as sighting the object, shooting the object, or taking a sight. The angle, and the time when it was measured, can be used to calculate a position line on a nautical or aeronautical chart. A common use of the sextant is to sight the sun at noon to find one's latitude. See celestial navigation for more discussion. Held horizontally, the sextant can be used to measure the angle between any two objects, such as between two lighthouses, which will, similarly, allow for calculation of a position on a chart.

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Columbus wouldn't have used a sextant like the one you've linked to. They used the stars to navigate to the best of their ability, but it was a little more primitive.

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Originally Posted by Blade Wielder

Columbus wouldn't have used a sextant like the one you've linked to. They used the stars to navigate to the best of their ability, but it was a little more primitive.

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there are some theories that suggest Columbus was using Muslim drawn maps.

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Originally Posted by Desdinova

there are some theories that suggest Columbus was using Muslim drawn maps.

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"So, the infidel Colombus wants to go to India, does he? Mua ha ha!"

*Pen scribbling noises*

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Originally Posted by billyjeff2

Here's the link to the WHO website:
WHO | Second-hand tobacco smoke

As I read it, it doesn't say what you said it says. See?
Don't know where you got your info on this

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That is because that is not the complete study, that is what they tell the public.
I see you went straight to thier public propagander site,You have to actually do a little research and find the original complete study from 1998,which is most likely not easy to find nowdays. Please, if you are truly interested in this subject, research a little further than so called health organisations and anti-smoking groups. As I advised go to DR.Siegels blog site "the rest of the story" As I have said he and many other tobacco control advocates are trying to distance themselves from the "junk science" being trotted out nowdays as the truth.

P.S I don,t see what all this has to do with sailing off the edge of the world:confused:

Well...you brought this up about the WHO. I logically assumed you would be able to cite your authority on this. Now it turns out I have to do the research to validate what you asserted. Methinks it should be the other way around...
As for the Dr. Siegel reference: sorry, but one man's view on this isn't enough to sway me in the face of the mountain of contrary evidence--like the WHO report, for example...remember, there were a host of "experts" presented on behalf of Big Tobacco who asserted there was no scientific link between smoking and cancer well after the science had been well established.

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Originally Posted by AussiePostie

That is because that is not the complete study, that is what they tell the public.
I see you went straight to thier public propagander site,You have to actually do a little research and find the original complete study from 1998,which is most likely not easy to find nowdays. Please, if you are truly interested in this subject, research a little further than so called health organisations and anti-smoking groups. As I advised go to DR.Siegels blog site "the rest of the story" As I have said he and many other tobacco control advocates are trying to distance themselves from the "junk science" being trotted out nowdays as the truth.

P.S I don,t see what all this has to do with sailing off the edge of the world:confused:

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Billy, a question was asked as to how people came to believe that the world was flat etc. I gave a my opinion as to how this can happen and next thing I am being asked to defend myself.
OK,there have been 81 published studies on the effects of ETS,67 (including the WHO study)found no correlation between ETS exposure and deseases. Only 13 studies showed a statisistical association and in all of those 13 studies the association is weak a relative risk (RR) of less than 2) In most scientific studies a RR of less than 2 would be ignored and the study remain unpublished. So of those 81 studies can you guess which ones are used by WHO and all the other anti smoking groups?
Oh you have proberbly noticed that 67 + 13 = 80 not 81, well one study actually found a small protective effect. So that mountain of contrary evidence is more like an ant hill.

If you truly believe that ETS is dangerous and not just smelly and annoying, I hope you don,t own a car as driving it for 1 hour will pump out the same amount of pollution as 15,000 cigarettes. As they say "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Lets just agree to disagree:beer1:
Now I have forgotten, what was the original question of this thread?:)