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Apparently they are a Christian Militia group in Michigan and 9 of their members were recently arrested and are being charged with plotting to wage war against the US Government.
INDICTMENT (pdf)
Now, maybe these guys are bad guys after all and maybe the charges against them are all true but something just does not smell right to me. I am curious as to what you all think
What doesnt add up? Are you saying this is a smoke screen by obama to divert attention away from health care?
Anti-Governemtn militias in the US are not a new thing....
No they aren't a new thing I know but something is just not adding up for me...like an itch you just can't quite reach and no, I am not saying its a smoke screen although that wouldn't surprise me. Politics are politics after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfast
Some folks will see this kind of story thru the eyes of "Ruby Ridge", jack booted thugs, etc.
Me-not so much...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
While they sound like crackpots, I think what doesn't pass the smell test is the fact that it doesn't appear they actually did anything but talk about doing things and run around on their private property shooting guns.
Only count two of the indictment is actually about any concrete action and it is so vague I couldn't be sure they were actually accusing them of accomplishing any crime or just planning one.
As far as count one if they charged conspiracy against everyone who has talked about whacking a cop the entire genre of Rap music would be behind bars and every male under thirty in the ghettos of this country would be awaiting trial.
Counts three and four are only crimes if count two is proven so....
This looks a little like a test case to see if the government can remove any group that might be willing to put up armed resistance to it before they actually reach the point of taking any action. I'll be listening to the evidence they present in this case with care see where it leads.
Sounds a lot like the poor fellas in florida that were arrested as terrorists.
Just some poor patriots getting ready to fight the man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
y'all ever hear of "intent laws"?
Conspiracy to commit murder is illegal, no?Quote:
Federal authorities say the Hutaree started to conduct military-style training in Michigan’s Lenawee County in August 2008.
After debating different scenarios, the group decided upon killing a local law enforcement official and attacking the subsequent funeral procession, the indictment says. The indictment says the Hutaree planned to use “improvised explosive devices” and “explosively formed projectiles” that, authorities say, qualify as weapons of mass destruction.
The group accelerated training in February and March with plans to carry out the attack in April, the indictment states.
Granted, it will have to be proven. But if there is true, they deserve to be in prison because conspiracy to commit murder (or terrorism) is illegal.
Come on: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Where are the cries for gitmo, waterboarding and indefinite lockup without hearing? These guys are terrorists. Why are you suddenly asking for proof? That didn't seem to be a consideration before.
If they were muslims, I think there would not be a peep from most Americans. People have been sent to gitmo for less than this. Now that they are white Christians, do they get the sympathy vote? Suddenly the terrorism bs gets too close to home for comfort?
Is intent even proveable?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnarchoPhil
It will be if they waterboard them long enough. Come on Mark. They're terrorists. They deserve it. :p No mercy. They are enemy combatants.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
Its not a question of white christian verses brown muslim Bruno. If they're guilty they're guilty. My problem. Being that I get a strong smell of low politics at play but because I already mistrust this administration it puts everything they do in a tainted light in my mind, so, I thought I would put the story out there and see what kind of replies I getQuote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
As all have stated, the individuals are charged and not convicted, however, after reading the General Allegations within the Indictment, I have little question about what has taken place so far, and if a portion of these allegations are proven, I hope they get the maximum.
I have former professional experience with these Militia types and I have the same distain for them that I have for foreign terrorists. They are a cowardly lot of losers, comprised mostly of individuals who look to blame anyone and anything other than themselves for their own self-caused misery or perceived misery. As foreign terrorists use religion, local terrorists use religion or the constitution as their justification for their unprincipled narcissistic arrogant sense of self-worth with exploitative indifference to the welfare of others, all in the hope of special recognition...essentially...self-aggrandizement.
In short, they are absent social conscience, and have total disregard for anyone's rights but their own.
Unfortunately, their calculated slant on religion or the constitution woven into their stated cause as an appeal for justification sullies both in the eyes of the young or uniformed.
But, that's just me:)
No true Christian would do what they are saying these people did. We have to remember that they are innocent until proven guilty.
What I see here, Mark, are yahoos who stopped talking big and started hiring people to build bombs.
Owning guns=ok. Running about the woods with your buddies pretending to be hot stuff=ok. Building bombs to kill police= NOT OK. Once you start making bombs to kill people, you become a criminal...it's a pretty simple equation.
Let's waterboard some answers out of them!
Mark you failed the political sommelier test with Mrs. Palin.
As far as I'm concerned, so far this is just an indictment, until the gathered evidence is confirmed sufficient and they are found guilty they are innocent. I'd wait for the completion of the process.
Well....you take a loaded gun; you place the barrel of the gun against my left temple; tell me to "make your day" and then you pull the trigger. Only problem-the gun jams and I walk away.Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS
See--that would be an example of "intent". You intended to kill me. That in and of itself is a crime. Also, you may have seen that "sting" TV show where they ambush pedophiles who arrange meetings with "minors" that aren't really minors. They still go to jail for their intent crime, even if they don't get to carry out their intentions.
Convictions based upon proof of intent-via circumstantial evidence; is hardly uncommon. Otherwise, proof of intent would require prosecutors to either elicit an admission, or to unscrew the suspect's skull cap and peer inside to discern intent.
I'm all for it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
The big question about this case is where does bullshiting with your buddies become intent. When does assembling and speaking cross the line to conspiricy.
Did they actually do anything illegal? Or do we already have thought police?
It is a shame that they couldn't have gotten a fellow by the name of Timothy McVeigh at that stage of his game.
Again what stage of the game are they at. To take the McVeigh example:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Do we have a guy laying plans out on a ****tail napkin?
Guys actually making a pact to carry out a plan?
Guys buying fertilizer?
Guys mixing it with fuel oil?
Guys driving the mess around in a truck?
Where on this scale exactly does it become a crime and where is the current crop?
The news reports are very very vague the details are non-existent and sadly, especially during holy week, the term "christian" militant group is getting used by the talking heads with relish.
Have to agree with Miner123 on this. and where does the idea they are Christian come from ? I missed that part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miner123
That's why there is a judicial system in place. If you want to know the answers to your questions you should read up the pertaining laws, or consult a lawyer. Too many people on the internet post like they're experts, while they are in fact clueless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
If the process is public you can attend the court proceedings too and then you'll see for yourself the actual evidence for the charges.
Or you can just speculate on the subject based on media reports, in which case check out the classifieds section of the newspaper - I have got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you real cheep.
I'm pretty sure it comes from the same place where the idea that 9/11 terrorists were true Muslims.Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoHave to agree with Miner123 on this. and where does the idea they are Christian come from ? I missed that part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miner123
Their webpage. Hutaree.com.Quote:
Originally Posted by paco
"Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
Hmmm. You seem awfully defensive of these would-be McVeighs.
What is it with these people. Why can't we christians have proper terrorists like the muslims.....
These guys look like they couldn't bomb their way out of a wet paper bag.
I'm just wondering if this is the next step of tyrany that we are seeing. The loss of our freedoms is nearly complete removing the ability to assemble and bear arms would be the next logical step for this overreaching government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
Not anything against the right to bear guns in general, but i think the world would be safer place if someone just picked the guns away from those hutaree dudes and other great minds alike.
I agree. No true Christian would do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miner123
But you must remember that throughout history there have been LOADS of people, who truly believed to be True Christians, who have done shit like this and worse. All in name of their faith.
Same goes for Muslims, Jews & whatever
From what I can tell...... it's right around the corner. Pretty scary thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildtim
As I'm hearing more about this group today they are sounding more and more like complete wackoes but I still haven't heard any more about the criminal end of things.
:roflmao:roflmao:roflmao Thanks! I needed a good laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by LX_Emergency
Yep, they seem to be loonies for sure--I read something yesterday (sorry, got a big batch of work coming down the track and don't have time to trace the source at the moment) to the effect that even other militia groups think they are over the edge.
In response, and with all respect, to a couple of previous comments that I thought needed a bit of fact-checking:
Fact check, part one: President Obama has, in the past, supported such measures as renewing the assault-weapons ban and has supported the rights of municipalities to restrict firearms. Frankly, if you had spent most of your career working in and representing neighborhoods torn apart by violence as much of Chicago's South Side has been, you'd probably support that too. Even if you disagree that that is the best approach, you can acknowledge, surely, that as a response to school kids getting gunned down on the street it is not some radical socialist plot.
Fact check, part two: Since taking the oath of office as President, he has done nothing to expand firearms control. Zero. Nada. Ничево. Niente. Nor is there any indication he plans to pursue such an agenda.
Barack Obama on Gun Control
Barack Obama and gun control: Surprise, Obama has expanded gun rights - chicagotribune.com
Chicago Violence Haunts Obama as Gun-Control Backers Left Cold - Bloomberg.com
Gun control group gives Obama an âFâ - TheHill.com
~Rich
Oh, you can't just make your own mormon terrorists, now you want to capitalize on the 'Christian' ones? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by LX_Emergency
I'd say the only true christian terrorist was the famous Peter, before he became the pope - (1) he hang around with Christ most of the time (not just claimed he did), so that would make him true Christian (2) he pulled Mr. Blond on a lowly servant since he couldn't take a real soldier.
I looked trough their site and to me they seem like a bunch of idiots.
On one page they quote verses about love and on their forum they have an entire "undreforum" (just like the ones here on srp) about "the evil jew" so to me they seem like a bunch of right wing nutcases. I have met a couple of people that have a few of the same views. This summer I met an old guy up in the mountains in tennessee that spoke to me for an entire hour about how I should stock up on guns and canned food. He was also a "christian" but not very Christ-like.
So on the subject of them being christians my opinion is that it is not what they call themselves, but how Christ-like they are that should be what counts.
These guys call themselves Christians and Ben Affleck calls himself an actor....See what I mean:)
What they call themselves or who or what they serve, (Islam, Christianity, Buddism, Earth-Wind-Fire...:)), is irrelevant, it is what they do that allows us to come up with the more accurate assessment that they are simply criminal, dysfunctional or just nuts...
The only way these types can buttress a low self-esteem is by devaluing others; always of course in the name of idealistic inspiration in service of a higher cause or motivated by false beliefs and perceptions arising from their obvious mental illness...Fine' :beer2:
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