What do you really think about this?

My problem with giving up liberties to catch these guys is that I dont trust the government to either safeguard the data they collect (how may times has some MI5 official left a laptop on a train?), nor do I trust them to use those new powers just to catch terrorists.

It'll start as just catching terrorists, but then it'll be catching other crooks as well (which is fine), then nailing people for littering or putting their bin out early (a definate grey area) and finally it'll end up at total thought police territory, which is definately not Ok.

Sooner or later people are going to have to talk and resolve their differences.
No matter how good your security or borders are, those bent on violence will always slip through.
You can pour billions into defensive measures, but you are only addressing the symptoms, not the cause.

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Originally Posted by welshwizard

Sooner or later people are going to have to talk and resolve their differences.
No matter how good your security or borders are, those bent on violence will always slip through.
You can pour billions into defensive measures, but you are only addressing the symptoms, not the cause.

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I would agree with that if it wasn't the radical Islamic culture. Those people may as well be from Mars with the mindset that makes them proud to have a son or daughter who volunteers to be a suicide bomber, a martyr in their eyes. Who murder their own daughter because she was held by kidnappers and set free and refer to it as an 'honor killing'. It would take generations to change that mindset if it ever could be changed.

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Originally Posted by Stubear

My problem with giving up liberties to catch these guys is that I dont trust the government to either safeguard the data they collect (how may times has some MI5 official left a laptop on a train?), nor do I trust them to use those new powers just to catch terrorists.

It'll start as just catching terrorists, but then it'll be catching other crooks as well (which is fine), then nailing people for littering or putting their bin out early (a definate grey area) and finally it'll end up at total thought police territory, which is definately not Ok.

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Well you can't trust people not to overstep their bounds whether civil liberties are written into law or not. The government is made up of people and many times they are over zealous in enforcing the law. Look at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Isn't it ironic that the FBI building in our, the USA, nation's capital is named after a man who was basically a criminal himself ?

It's such a complicated and convoluted issue.

I will agree with Bruno on some level. The U.S., again on some level, is like a kid throwing rocks at a huge hornet's nest only getting angry or scared and perplexed as to why the hornets seem to want to attack with full force anyone in the vicinity, even those that aren't throwing the stones.

Does the U.S. government need to get involved in foreign affairs in all the ways it does and has? Many of which I'm sure the citizenry isn't even aware of?

Maybe it's our job as citizens, the innocent that appear to be potential targets or victims of such terrorism to ask why we're hated to such a degree. What if anything is our goverment doing to create such fury? Are our goverment's actions appropriate and necessary? If not, should such actions be stopped?

In the kid and the hornets nest analogy, who's the terrorist? Or a spin on it: If the kid never throws rocks at the hornet's nest but instead postures in front of it in a threatening manner with an underlying desire to illicit an offensive attack when appearing or taking the position of being innocent and eventually is attacked, who is the terrorist? Perception depends on perspective, no?

Chris L

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I would agree with that if it wasn't the radical Islamic culture. Those people may as well be from Mars with the mindset that makes them proud to have a son or daughter who volunteers to be a suicide bomber, a martyr in their eyes. Who murder their own daughter because she was held by kidnappers and set free and refer to it as an 'honor killing'. It would take generations to change that mindset if it ever could be changed.

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I don't think that's fair Jimmy, I think that we can look to our own culture and see SIMILAR types of destructive extremism. I imagine you can think of a few examples of those types of groups with out my help, there has always been people who simply hate other people because they are ignorant.

Looking at it from that POV, education is the key. Personally, I don't think the best way to demonstrate to people that you are not evil is to continue warring with them. Perhaps a different method is required. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it might be more constructive.