What is Evil?

**These are my personal feelings. I don't expect anyone to agree with them and I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or behavior. We are all experiencing this life subjectively, so please keep that in mind while reading this post.**

I believe that I am a decent person. I don't do terrible things. If it's within my power to help others, I will (though I don't do it all the time). I too believe in the "do unto others..." rule of thumb, and I think for the most part, people know what is right and wrong. What bothers me is that people will blindly follow something under the guise of it being "good" and "right". I think evil manifested is: religion, and the exploitation of "god" (whether that be jesus, his father, allah, krishna, etc) for any reason whatsoever. To me, religion takes everything that is good about the idea of a god, and ruins it. How many wars have been fought over disagreements between who is right? It's sickening, and only mankind could have created things that are so inately cruel, yet hide behind a veil of (what i believe to be) false hopes, false promises and doctrine that is outdated and does not promote free thinking.

I think that there are grey area in all walks of life, and those grey areas are different to everyone. If someone kills your whole family, is retribution the right thing to do? Is it just? You might say no, but see how you would respond if you were in those shoes. Morality is funny that way, because it changes based on circumstance. That's just human nature.

True EVIL........Carterage Companies and Lawyers :cry:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

That was the same point I tried to make in my first post, but you said it better. And again, that type of evil has no need for any comparison with any form of "good."

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This post reminded me of what I think is a crucial point to my belief. I do believe that it is possible to come up with a definition for evil that is completely consistent with this way of thinking.

Since we are talking about belief here (especially since few would claim a full understanding of things as they actually are), I am not suggesting that we can't call a certain set of circumstances and actions "evil" according to a given definition. I am suggesting that without some kind of absolute standard (call it eternal principles, god, judgement, or whatever you like) the label of evil becomes insignificant. If a bunch of stars travel through space, what difference does it matter what color they burned after they are gone? If someone is now worm-food, what does it matter how they treated another pile of worm-food a hundred years ago...

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Originally Posted by aeon

**These are my personal feelings. I don't expect anyone to agree with them and I am not trying to change anyone's beliefs or behavior. We are all experiencing this life subjectively, so please keep that in mind while reading this post.**

I believe that I am a decent person. I don't do terrible things. If it's within my power to help others, I will (though I don't do it all the time). I too believe in the "do unto others..." rule of thumb, and I think for the most part, people know what is right and wrong. What bothers me is that people will blindly follow something under the guise of it being "good" and "right". I think evil manifested is: religion, and the exploitation of "god" (whether that be jesus, his father, allah, krishna, etc) for any reason whatsoever. To me, religion takes everything that is good about the idea of a god, and ruins it. How many wars have been fought over disagreements between who is right? It's sickening, and only mankind could have created things that are so inately cruel, yet hide behind a veil of (what i believe to be) false hopes, false promises and doctrine that is outdated and does not promote free thinking.

I think that there are grey area in all walks of life, and those grey areas are different to everyone. If someone kills your whole family, is retribution the right thing to do? Is it just? You might say no, but see how you would respond if you were in those shoes. Morality is funny that way, because it changes based on circumstance. That's just human nature.

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You make some good points. I would suggest that religion itself is not the problem, but rather the people that have found a way to realize their own desire for power by hijacking something people believe in and exploiting it for their own gain. Governments do the same thing. People are atracted to the power that is gained by rising in it's ranks.

Though raised a Christian, I became an atheist for a number of years based on exactly the same points you make. Then I realized that there is a difference between faith and the administration of faith. One is God and the other is men, who you have correctly identified operate from human nature. After I realized that, I found that I could have faith again and not let the men who administrate it come between God and myself.

Just my thoughts.

I knew this would be coming up. I just don't know how to word it better.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

This is rather generic, don't you think?

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Yes it is. Because there's no right description for something that covers EVERY evil situation.

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Is it evil for me to look for a better job if my current boss is not paying enough?

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No because in that case you're not pulling him down. However try to sell his secrets to gain a higher salary at your new employer and you might be thinking right.

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If I am an intern among 20 others, trying to secure the 1 job opening at the end with all my capabilities, does that make me evil?

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It would if you'd go along trying to make them look bad so you'd look better instead of relying on your own skills.

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If I am a small business owner and I try to outcompete my competitor, does that make me evil?

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no because you're simply doing your buisiness as well as you know how and so is he. On the other hand if you decide to start a smear campaign in the media....you might be considered evil.

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Trying to do or be better than someone else in itself is not evil.
And in some cases, even putting someone at a disadvantage is not evil.

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I never said it was evil to be better than someone else. I said it was evil to be better than someone else AT THEIR COST.

And we'll have to disagree on the second sentence, at least when the purpose is to advance yourself.

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An example would be to keep someone in a quarantained zone locked up.

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Completely different situation and has nothing to do with what I said. However if you'd work for the departement of health and you though that by creating a big health scare and controlling it you'd lock someone up in a quarantained zone.....yup, you're evil.

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Evil is when you stop caring about the other persons pov and only about your own. If you are trying to advance yourself without needlessly kicking the other person down, then that is not evil. It's called doing your best.

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Which is exactly what I tried to bring across.

Apart from the idea "needlessly" it is never needed to "kick another person down". You can outgrow them, tell them the truth and help them learn from it. But kicking someone down is never justified.

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Originally Posted by Del1r1um

...If someone is now worm-food, what does it matter how they treated another pile of worm-food a hundred years ago...

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One crucial aspect buried here, is that we can choose to act in a different way. We can learn from their experience and not repeat the mistakes they made.

Ya know, one of the other things being left out here is the concept of a just judge. We are all in fair agreement that there is a spectrum of good to evil. Between all these good lines is missing the idea that we do not trust others to be our judges when we seek justice for a wrong done.

I'm thinking along the lines of "Who watches the watchers?" Our democracy allows those who act in an evil way, the same regard for their rights as anyone else. But there are obvious cases where the outcome is not trusted. How do you rectify that problem?

One example is the farce presented when politicians are allowed to influence the choice of a judge for the Supreme Court. No one seems concerned about fairness or impartiality, or the potential justice's sense of good or evil.

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Originally Posted by Alembic

You make some good points. I would suggest that religion itself is not the problem, but rather the people that have found a way to realize their own desire for power by hijacking something people believe in and exploiting it for their own gain. Governments do the same thing. People are atracted to the power that is gained by rising in it's ranks.

Though raised a Christian, I became an atheist for a number of years based on exactly the same points you make. Then I realized that there is a difference between faith and the administration of faith. One is God and the other is men, who you have correctly identified operate from human nature. After I realized that, I found that I could have faith again and not let the men who administrate it come between God and myself.

Just my thoughts.

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Absolutely. I'm not sure I believe in anything, but I too have come to realize what you're saying and know that if something moves me to gaining faith, I'm willing to accept it if it's something I truly believe in. That being said, the closest I probably am to that is just believing in the power of good that lies in everyone, whether they were preached right and wrong or not. We are all capable of amazing things and terrible things, and I think that both will always exist.

ALSO: A funny point I heard last week. If we free our lives from sin, then jesus died for nothing (being that he died for our sins). At the very moment that you become a true, sin-free christian, you have made jesus obsolete in your life. Just an interesting way of looking at it I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Troggie

I believe that good/evil is a social concept. If you look through out known history it has always been associated with the religion/rulings of the time that were created by men.

Cannibalism is a perfect example as it was/is acceptable in some cultures and in others it is seen as Evil.

The only absolute truth is that those that adapt the quickest survive.

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yep, pretty much. because man is so conceited, he thinks he's better than all the other animals, but at the end of the day he behaves just the same.

I think a lot has been said about the black and white of evil, but what of the gray areas. For example, our political system right now. I truly believe that most politicians believe their positions to be right. Given the golden rule, you could treat others as you wish to be treated, but still be in disagreement ... e.g., a liberal may wish to spend more on entitlements, with good intentions, and a conservative may wish to lower taxes and balance the budget, also with good intentions. So far, all is well, no evil here. It's when these folks decide that the end justifies the means that we get into the gray area. False accusations, deceptively negative attack ads, deceitful spin, breaking laws, exchanging favors, etc., begin to look evil. Is it? Do the ends justify the means? If so, how do we stop this death spiral of destructive behavior? Is one side going to play nice while the other isn't? Obviously, the answer is "no" as long as we, the voters allow it. How do we vote against it, when both sides are doing it? Would we vote against it if we had to vote against our own beliefs and perspectives? I obviously don't have the answer. Being honest here, I voted for McCain, but when Obama won, I was hopeful that he was a man of integrity, and believed his desire to be more inclusive. My personal opinion, (and I KNOW it will be challenged, and I'm not saying it to provoke challenge, but to illustrate the problem), is that almost immediately Mr. Obama excluded key people who were in disagreement, and brought in allies that were part of the problem ... that's exclusionary. I guess I'm saying all of this because I hear a lot of rhetoric mostly from the right and left that the other side is EVIL. I don't think this is evil, but that doesn't mean that there won't be a bad result. I don't think our politicians are intentionally ruining our country, but their insistence on being right, or winning is certainly not helping matters.

I believe most politicians like power, but also believe that most like the power because they believe that their outlook is correct, and hence they act, in their own minds, with the best intentions, but make what they believe are necessary and acceptible sacrifices. I don't know, though if the sacrifice of truth, integrity, objectivity, care, etc. are worth any issue or "side". I would agree that Freedom is worth sacrificing a lot, but each side seems willing to sacrifice almost all of what's good about our country to shift it in one direction or another.

I guess the point here is, you don't have to be evil to really screw things up. Anyway, I'll shut up as I know I'm only marginally on topic.

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Originally Posted by Alembic

Yes, something can be true or not true, but it can't be true for me and not true for you - one of us would be wrong. As hard as that is to accept for many people, there are instances where somebody is wrong.

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Hence ... one of my favorite sayings ... "We both can't be right, so you must be wrong!" :rofl2: Thought I'd drop a little humor in the midst of this heavy thread.