Learning a second language

I recently read a statistic that about 66% of people worldwide can at least communicate reasonably in more than one language, pretty interesting.

It has been a goal of mine for quite some time to learn Mandarin Chinese but just recently I've decided to actually begin. Does anyone have experience learning this as a second language? What are the best options to learn?

A classroom setting would sort of be un-doable so I'm thinking along the lines of software. Has anyone tried Rosetta Stone or L-lingo? I hear Rosetta Stone is good for most languages but L Lingo is slightly better for Asian languages. Any thoughts on why they might be different? Does anyone have experience with either program?

Any info would help.

Learning a second language should be absolutely required for all Americans. It opens your head in so many useful ways. So good on you!

I did some work with Rosetta stone when learning Japanese. It was ok, but once I started actually using Japanese I found it hadn't been all that accurate. For beginners, it was good because the spoken and written language are connected right away, but once you move higher, it is not as useful.

I can't really say much about Chinese, except that if you ever want to be literate, START FAST. Those Chinese characters are not easy to take on.

I'm somewhat fluent in Chinese, but I took classes in college and lived in China for a little over a year. I never used any software, just mounds of flashcards and hundreds of hours of study. It's one of those languages that you have to throw yourself into, as it's not the easiest language in the world. People learning English have it somewhat easy since English is all over the place and around every corner, not so much with Chinese. Finding someone to help you with conversational Chinese would be a good bet if you're serious about learning it. Getting a Chinese girlfriend helps even more. :hmmm: It's a tonal language, so even a slight mispronunciation will make it difficult for a Chinese person to understand you. I've done a few lectures here and there, and I always use my 'Chinese tongue twister' to show what speaking Chinese is like. 'Ma ma ma ma ma' means 'Is mother chastising the horse?' (does mother chastise the horse being a more accurate translation) if you speak the tones correctly. 'hua hua hua hua' means 'paint a picture of a flower'. So, get a language coach if for no other reason than to make sure your intonation is perfect. Reading and writing is a whole different story. That's what the flashcards are for. Learn a character, write it a hundred times in a notebook to hardwire it into your brain, and test yourself regularly. Chinese grammar is somewhat easy, fortunately.

It's a pretty big undertaking, I salute you if you make it past the first few months. But it does get easier once you're familiar with the mechanics of the language. Plus you'll find you develop super memory from practice. It's brain lube.

As far as Rosetta Stone, I couldn't say as I've never used it.

One of these days I'll expand my French into usefulness, or so I keep telling myself.

Very insightful. The 'tongue twister' is pretty amusing. I do remember reading that it is a tonal language which makes me a bit nervous but hopefully everything turns out well. I do work with quite a few people who speak Mandarin are their primary language so hopefully I can practice a bit on my own time then hone my skills through practice dialogue with others. (strange to say hone here and not be referring to a smooth rock)

And I do agree with Jim, it should be required. I'm always so impressed during work that people from EVERY country speak English but I can't understand a word of most languages. (I've picked up a bit of Spanish and German... but only a few words related to travel and hospitality)

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Originally Posted by JimR

Learning a second language should be absolutely required for all Americans. It opens your head in so many useful ways. So good on you!

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I agree it's good for everyone's personal development to learn a second language (or a third, or a fourth ... ).
Although I do not think that something like Chinese or Japanese is meant for every one given the huge difference between Asian languages and Roman languages.

I second Jim. If you want to learn Chinese or Japanese, start now. Apart from the fact that it is a different language, learning the kanji is a major undertaking. I am learning Japanese. The effort is measured in years of dedication. And get a coach to help you with the tonal angle because otherwise you will get lost. It is my first non-roman language so I am struggling with it.

Learning a second language is something that everyone should do. It gives you a much better understanding of the rest of the world, as well as help you talk to other people. this is easy to say for me of course. In Belgium you generally learn 3 languages before you graduate high school, not including optional languages like Latin and German.

After Japanese (hah. in 10 years or so :D) I'd like to add Spanish, Arabic or Hebrew. Or somethign else. :) Learning languages is fun and really broadens your world.
Go for it. You will never regret it. Even if you drop out after the basics, you'll have something you can use for life. And if you ever have to interact with someone who speaks that language, just saying 'good morning' in their native language is a huge goodwill gesture.

Thumbs up to the foreign girlfriend technique ;-)

Depends whether you want to learn a language to actually use it, or just for brain exercise to stave-off dementia.
You can learn what the Army School of languages calls a 'pop' language, French,Spanish, etc., and aims to have you speaking it after six weeks of intensive everday immersion or one of the more difficult ones such as Russian or Chinese where they reckon it takes two years of intensive everyday study.
I'm just coming to the end of Open University French (4yrs), where you learn more than just the language, but a awful lot about the country and it's people. I think that unless you spend some time living in the country of your target language it's nigh on impossible to become fluent.

There is the old joke "What do you call someone who speaks three languages?"..Tri-lingual, "two languages".. bi-lingual, "one language".. English.

I'm a bit surprised that Chinese was picked for a second language. If I spoke english as a first language I'd learn Spanish as a second. It would probably be much more usefull in my life.

I'm learning some spanish at the moment. However it's not my second that I'm learning (obviously since I'm typing this in English) it's be my......5th I think although my french is really not that good....maybe I should pick that up a little more first.

Good for ya that you want to learn a new language. It really gives you a bigger view of the world around us and will help to understand different cultures.

Being bilingual is a more unusual condition than most people think. It means speaking both very naturally and capably, and I wouldn't call myself bilingual in anything. My German wife is, after fourteen years in the UK, as she speaks English not quite without unnatural structures or pronunciation once in a while, but completely naturally, and faster than most of us.

There was a peculiar phenomenon in the days of British India, when British children were cared for by native servants, and often learned the native languages simultaneously with English. A small child's language learning ability goes far beyond an adult's, and is quite different in its nature. They grew up truly bilingual, as children of mixed marriages often do, without even an awareness that they are speaking different languages with different parents. Then they were sent away to school in the UK, and came back assuming they could speak the language. But at least for a while, they found it had gone entirely. It was also something of a joke among Indian soldiers, that young British officers often addressed them in the female forms, which they had picked up in the course of their domestic arrangements.

Language learning doesn't necessarily stave off dementia. A point to remember is that most languages, other than the simplest, are more inflected than English. The verb forms are different for different people, the adjectives are masculine or female when the object isn't, the adjectives have to agree with gender or number, etc. etc. Some use a form of the noun to perform the functions we would do with prepositions, like "with", "by", "of" etc. Some of the European ones have a plural and a singular "you", and use the plural one when they want to be formal or polite, even if there is only one of you.

The result is that they are far more difficult to begin than English, which any market trader overseas can learn to jabber a little. But when you've got those things you've got them, and they mostly obey the rules. English starts easy, but you never get to the end of its complications.

I agree that it is difficult to learn a language well without human teachers, or at least the supplementing of self-teaching materials with human interaction. I teach college students in Saudi Arabia, and I tell them you can't build muscles by lifting featherweight plastic weights. Strain strengthens the mind, too. Still, there is no substitute for reading things you want to read. There is a sort of takeoff point in learning a language, where it sticks in the mind. I recently opened some of my old French university textbooks, and found that I had no trouble with some passages I distinctly remembered finding heavy going in my second year at university, which was 1969-70. But at that time I spoke much more fluently in Spanish, which I learned on a more conversational type of course. When I spent some time in Spain a few years back, though, I found far more of it had gone. The difference is that I had still been reading, not regularly but from time to time, in French.

That was really well written. Interesting poi on the Brit Soldiers. One i have found to be true from Amerrican Soldiers also...When they speak a different language it is usually in the feminine because they learn the language from females. Except of course Russian...Which is easier if you just take all the tenses out...makes me wish Esporanto vwould have taken off....Easy to use but without the nationality hang ups.

The key to learning a new language is using the new language - and living with the new language. It's one thing to learn it through Rosetta Stone or in the classroom, but until you immerse yourself with a new language, you'll only pick up bits and pieces and soon forget. I grew up around Mexicans and spoke Spanish, but I forgot a lot when I moved from Arizona. I learned French in college and spoke it...for awhile and then forgot it. I lived in Italy for awhile and learned Italian (knowing Spanish and French really helped), but after I moved away, I forgot it. If I don't think about it and somebody catches me off-guard, I can converse with them for awhile and then it fades away. I think it's because we are accustomed to doing the xxx-to-English and English-to-xxx translations in our head, when we should just communicate in one language.

I know my next language is Russian - I married a Russian, so I have to learn it eventually. She came to this country about 10 years ago and learned English (took her about two years). Now she speaks both languages fluently. Her parents don't speak English, but I manage to hold a conversation with them. I find it's more than just words, it's also body language, emphasis, and the context of the conversation. I know one thing that I won't understand as an American is how Russians speak with passion, there are loud and forceful one minute and then quiet the next. Americans don't speak with a passion.

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Originally Posted by Caledonian

Being bilingual is a more unusual condition than most people think. It means speaking both very naturally and capably, and I wouldn't call myself bilingual in anything. My German wife is, after fourteen years in the UK, as she speaks English not quite without unnatural structures or pronunciation once in a while, but completely naturally, and faster than most of us.

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I can honestly say that I am bilingual in Dutch and English. And with bilingual I mean to the level of a native speaker.
Several English and Irish people I've worked with told me my language skill is better than theirs.
I have to admit that what helped me a lot was working with English colleagues for a couple of years. My reading and writing skills did not need improving at that point, but speaking naturally is something you can only learn by talking with native speakers.

My French and German are good enough to get by, but not good enough to have an easy flowing conversation.

Once my Japanese gets a bit better I'll have to find some Japanese people to hang out with :)
I have a bunch of Japanese samurai movies, but the problem with those is that trying to understand that is like being a novice student of the English language and trying to understand Texan or Scottish dialect :)

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Originally Posted by Wintchase

That was really well written. Interesting poi on the Brit Soldiers. One i have found to be true from Amerrican Soldiers also...When they speak a different language it is usually in the feminine because they learn the language from females. Except of course Russian...Which is easier if you just take all the tenses out...makes me wish Esporanto vwould have taken off....Easy to use but without the nationality hang ups.

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The problem with Esperanto is precisely that it has nothing attached to it.

For example, suppose I got really interested in Japanese bladesmithing. If I learn Japanese I can immerse myself in everything that is written about that topic by the people who are experts. I can learn to understand the culture. I can talk with everyone who matters (at least if they will see me etc). And everything I can want to talk about has an extensive vocabulary and terminology.

If I were to learn esperanto, I could... pretty much only talk to other language-o-philes. It will be very hard to find one who is also an experienced Japanese blacksmith. I would say the chances are nil, even if esperanto had taken off. On top of that, there would be zero literature and historical information available to me because that would still be in Japanese. And even if I were to find a Japanese blacksmithing expert who would speak esperanto, or perhaps talked to one via an interpretor, esperanto simply does not have the topical vocabulary to talk about in-depth about traditional bladesmithing.

Esperanto is an interesting thing from a language point of view, and perhaps useful as a common language for getting by in a foreign country. Ordering food, asking directions, etc. Things that are applicable regardless of which country you are in. For real practical applications it was doomed from the start.

Mind you, 'just getting by and asking directions' is what most people would need when traveling. It would have been a major accomplishment had that happened. The reason it didn't happen imo is the issue I explained. People wanting to learn another language usually have a specific reason for doing so, and Esperanto would not help them with that.

As an american that has dabbled off and on learning Mandarin let me tell you, it is not easy. Tonal languages for a romantic speaker are hard t o grasp. My american ears have trouble with the tones.

I found Pimsleur to be better than Rosetta. It is basically audio tapes/cds. You should be able to get it at your library.

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Originally Posted by ats200

Very insightful. The 'tongue twister' is pretty amusing. I do remember reading that it is a tonal language which makes me a bit nervous but hopefully everything turns out well. I do work with quite a few people who speak Mandarin are their primary language so hopefully I can practice a bit on my own time then hone my skills through practice dialogue with others. (strange to say hone here and not be referring to a smooth rock)

And I do agree with Jim, it should be required. I'm always so impressed during work that people from EVERY country speak English but I can't understand a word of most languages. (I've picked up a bit of Spanish and German... but only a few words related to travel and hospitality)

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The tones aren't actually that bad, really, if you look at them in a more pragmatic way. Focus more on the sound of the word, not on consciously trying to create the tones. All languages are tonal to a certain degree, such as how, in English, we say HOSpital, not hosPITal, or hospitAL (like in Spanish). You just have to remember how the word sounds. You have to be a good mimic, like a parrot.

Chinese people also have regional accents, like anyone else, some being more easy to understand than others. Chinese learners learn a Beijing accent, although I lived in Henan province so I speak with a Henan accent. Most immigrants to the US are I think primarily from southern China, and their accents are a little difficult for me to understand. Not to mention that they randomly switch from Mandarin to whatever their local dialect is. Most Chinese are bilingual, peasants sometimes can't speak Mandarin.

Esperanto was a marvelous idea, and deserved to take off once the United Nations got under way, and yet it is practically dead nowadays. Maybe that is because nobody loves it as his own, and I'm sure few people, even among Esperanto speakers, ever got into the habit of thinking directly in it. Look at the way Shakespeare, the Bible, Churchill, Billy Connolly and a host of other sources creep into our daily words. I don't believe that would happen with Esperanto.

Idiomatic shades of meaning are usually specific to languages. "I'm sure" often means you aren't sure, and "no doubt" can mean there is no doubt, in England, but in Scotland means "I'm not at all sure of that." In Arabic "helas", literally "it is finished", can mean "All is complete", "Don't mention it", or "The situation has deteriorated beyond remedy". Probably that would came into Esperanto if a lot of people used it routinely for a few centuries, but we aren't going to.

I had a friend who worked in Hong Kong in the 1960s, when the level of refugees arriving from the mainland was high. He used to see Chinese taking out notebooks and discussing how to spell words, when they didn't understand each other, because the script spans a number of dialects. Similarity can even be seen in some of the Japanese traditional characters.

There is a marvelous story about Japanese script, because they realised that military signalling in morse was a non-starter with their traditional script. So they produced a new phonetic alphabet, with characters similar in number to our own. But in wartime it promoted laxity in ciphering, for they relied on the fact that a Japanese-speaking British, Inidian or American signaller was unlikely to be within range of their tactical communications. What they didn't realise, when they sent out encrypted groups of Japanese characters, is that with only two or three morse dots and dashes per letter, they were sending random groups of English letters without knowing it. Any signaller could take those down, and relay them to the specialist decryption unit in Ceylon.

My sensei told me that in Japanese as well as Chinese, people speaking different dialects (or unsure about pronunciation) would draw the kanji with their fingers. Pronunciation may differ, but the kanji are unambiguous.

i am fluent in spanish with english being my first language...


IF you are serious about trying to learn a language then you really should give a try to "michel thomas master languages"...

michel thomas has a incredible past if you read his wiki..... incredible man... he taught a group of school children to be conversant in french in 5 days....... 5 days.....

his teaching method is very different from pimmsleur and rosetta stone *(which sucks IMHO)... it is simple and effective....

give it a shot... you will not regret it...

Honestly, the best way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in it. When I was in college I learned far more German when I spent a summer in Vienna than in the 3 semesters of classes preceding it.
That isn't always possible though so you have to find the next best solution for your needs and learning style.
I used to work for Rosetta Stone (as an assistant/photographer) and am quite familiar with their method. If you have some time and patience it isn't a bad method I just don't know that it's worth the asking price (to me).
They try to get you as immersed in the language as possible and all the audio is done by native speakers. All the text (other than very basic help text) is in the language you are learning. I do know that they also offer some sort of online community where you can interact with native speakers as well as have actual group lessons with a teacher.
If you can find it used for a good deal (don't buy anything older than V.3) it is probably worth it.
If it was a useless method the Army wouldn't have given them a contract to make a version just for them (which was insanely fun to photograph for a few weeks down at Blackwater). If you look through V 3 or newer you can see the back of my head in a few places. I even got face time in a couple shots for the military product.

*standard disclaimer* I do not work for Rosetta Stone and left an unhappy camper but am trying to give an honest opinion of their software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8jhy7ZQC38

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Originally Posted by Caledonian

Esperanto was a marvelous idea, and deserved to take off once the United Nations got under way, and yet it is practically dead nowadays. Maybe that is because nobody loves it as his own, and I'm sure few people, even among Esperanto speakers, ever got into the habit of thinking directly in it. Look at the way Shakespeare, the Bible, Churchill, Billy Connolly and a host of other sources creep into our daily words. I don't believe that would happen with Esperanto.

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This is why Latin was considered the language of science. It's dead language, not subject to cultural amalgamations.

My only problem with Esperanto is that it's not truly a 'neutral' language. It's very Western European in structure, and those who already speak a Romantic language would have the easiest time learning it. Its presumptions are Eurocentric.

I'm a bilingual in Finnish and Swedish and doing more or less ok in Estonian (more) and German (could be better) too. The point is that if you want to learn a second language then you should be able to use it frequently or you will forget it, at least some of it. Using another language is the best way to keep it going.

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Originally Posted by ChesterCopperpot

This is why Latin was considered the language of science. It's dead language, not subject to cultural amalgamations.

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Latin is so related to many modern languages, say Spanish and Italian, and many anglosaxian languages has words that come directly from Latin. Back in my school days (so damn long ago) we had to study (write, read, speak) Latin for eight years. Now i'm sorry that i never understood to start studying Spanish or Italian shortly after that because it might have been relatively easy. I was only happy that my Latin days were over for good.

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Originally Posted by ChesterCopperpot

This is why Latin was considered the language of science. It's dead language, not subject to cultural amalgamations.

My only problem with Esperanto is that it's not truly a 'neutral' language. It's very Western European in structure, and those who already speak a Romantic language would have the easiest time learning it. Its presumptions are Eurocentric.

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Originally Posted by ChesterCopperpot

This is why Latin was considered the language of science. It's dead language, not subject to cultural amalgamations.

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That, and in the early Western civilization, it was the unifying language, like English nowdays.
Everything that used to be published then was often done in Latin because everyone who mattered could read it. That is why all doctors have to learn the Latin names for all human bones etc.

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My only problem with Esperanto is that it's not truly a 'neutral' language. It's very Western European in structure, and those who already speak a Romantic language would have the easiest time learning it. Its presumptions are Eurocentric.

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To a point you are right. However, if you want to design a language that is easy to learn (especially the character set) the arabic alphabet is much easier to build something with than the oriental ones. And you definitely want to leave out the tonal component, as well as the ambiguity of Japanese pronunciations.