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Randy, bad guys won't have guns if there are non to be had. Well there will be SOME but if nobody's allowed to own a handgun they'd had to rely on smuggled guns and guns stolen from policing agencies, which would GREATLY reduce handgun availability to criminals. Those few who opt to use their guns would get more police attention due to the public outrage and be more likely to get caught.
Agreeing to disagree...study prohibition in the USA. The current drug situation. If there is a want, there will be a provider. I have over 20 switchblade knives. They have been illegal my entire life. Picking them up was as easy as a minor obtaining beer.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT
I do want to add that our perceptions are different from Bill's in one very specific way, or at least my perception. I have never had to point a gun at another human being, and have my life depend on it. I have a co-worker who spent time in the military and has 3 confirmed "kills". Two weeks ago, he pulled the plug on his father-in-law, who was terminal with cancer. When he told me about the experience, I told him that if he needed to talk, I was always available. His response? "No, this made sense. The man was suffering in ways we can't imagine." I can't fathom having to make those decisions.
RT
Just because criminals can obtain guns outside of the law doesn't mean that everyone should have a shooting implement designed for killing people. There are too many idiots out there.
Ilija...
I'm glad you numbered things. I won't have to cut and paste.
Point #1. I'm more concerned about the criminals than I am about Clinton wanting to grow a narrow mustache, stomp around, and begin yelling "Heil Hillary" It was the 2nd Amendment, not the 20th. That tells me those old fuddies with a ton of wisdom under their belt thought guns were pretty important. Every other Amendment has been expanded and given generous latitude in interpretation. The 2nd has been restricted and infringed upon.
Point #2. More likely to survive a beating or stabbing? Why are you accepting the role of victim? How 'bout the criminal surviving the bullet wound between his eyes? Or would you rather have your wife be the one to survive the beating or stabbing? Betcha Ron Goldman sure could have used a gun. I think it is naive to think criminals won't be as likely to hurt you if they don't have a gun.
Point #3. First of all, the point you try to make about guns not getting into the hands of criminals is moot. There are already too many guns in existence. You'd have a better chance of curing cancer by Tuesday than getting rid of all of them. And if the criminal can't get a gun, could he not get a knife or a baseball bat?
Point #4. I think you are totally off base with this one. Your statistical analogy touting a greater likelihood that you're better off without the gun is inaccurate. The anti-gun lobby uses this misconception often to try to convince people that it is true. Statistics can bolster anyone's cause. You can manipulate them to suit your own needs. Either side. I try not to use them unless they come from unbiased sources. All my guns are loaded and ready to use. I taught all my girls how to shoot and they all knew not to treat them as toys. Since they were allowed to shoot, they didn't find the need to experiment on their own. I don't think you need to worry too much about criminals using up all the range time to practice shooting. They learn from watching movies. It cracks me up when they turn the gun sideways when pointing it to act tough. Your comment about the increase in crime because there are more guns is flat out wrong. If you do a little searching, you will see that areas with armed citizens have a lesser crime rate.
A gun is a tool... an equalizing tool. There will always be a legitimate need for them. Answer truthfully... you can hear someone breaking the window downstairs. The news has been reporting home invasions where people are beat to death after being robbed. You have barricaded yourself and your family in one room and already called the police. You hear several different voices in your home. They begin to break down the door to the room you are in. Would you like to have a gun? There is more of a chance that this will happen before the possibility that you will accidentally shoot yourself or anyone else in your family.
To me, it's a whole lot better to have a gun and never need it than to need it and not have it.
Great thread and so far a sensible discussion.
I've used guns and seen the results of their use. Very ugly and unpleasant. If I had not used them I would have been the ugly one.
Lets get one thing perfectly clear. Guns are made to kill something.
Luckily I feel I don't live in an environment now where I need to arm myself or my family.
Would I arm myself and my family if I thought there was a possible threat. ? In a heartbeat.
Oh yeah...and if someone hurts my family then the flaming sword of Damoclese will follow.
Gary
Bill, your argument seems to be focused on defense of home and person. Let's examine the home invasion incident...
1) With guns -- they start shooting through the door, I start shooting, bullets flying all over the place, family at grave risk.
2) No guns -- they start trying to break down the door. The police are already on their way as I used my cell phone to call them (I always have it with me). By the time they break down the door, I already have a bunch of objects I can throw at them, which will buy me some time, the handle half of my pool cue and my martial arts training (proven under attack) to keep them at bay or to just kick the living s*** out of them, depending on their fighting ability.
Guns don't have to be eliminated by tuesday. They can be gradually legislated and educated out of the general population, but the governments woul have to go against gun manufacturers who have strong lobbies and lots of money to back them up.
I'd be feel a heck of a lot safer without a gun and in a state where guns are rare than packing heat in a state where any illiterate drunken yahoo has the power to take out a piece of metal, point it my way and kill me with it at any time.
Ilija...
If you are going to rely on law enforcement or good samaritans to save you from an ugly situation, just bend over, stick your head between your legs, and kiss your butt goodbye. It'll be all over by then. Police will take a while to get there and no one else will get involved, believe me.
Just tell me what is wrong with making people responsible for their actions. You can't blame criminal behavior on poverty. Poor people have morals, maybe just as many as you. The kind of programs you want to generate will not help or change the behavior of the target group causing all the damage. These guys are violent, they are predators, and they don't have the slightest problem with wiping you off the face of the earth... just because they feel like it.
Fight addiction? Here's how I would fight it. Give anyone who wants them, all the drugs they can possibly use... for free. Make sure you give them enough so they can overdose if they want. These are weak people and don't need to be in the gene pool.
Otherwise, point them in the direction of the churches that will help with their addiction. It's not something that should be a taxpayer's responsibility. Generosity should come from a desire to give, not out of a mandatory requirement of those who had nothing to do with the behavior. And hey, if you give the drugs away for free, it will eliminate the criminal who will rob or kill you to buy them. Eliminates the dealers too. Problem solved...
Lots of good points. Here are a few more:
Drugs are illegal and yet they are everywhere. Probably more than some of you may realize. You wipe out one source and another one pops up. Same will happen with guns. The price/value of guns will go up so high that criminals will find a way to get one/sell them, period. Not to mention there are millions of them unaccounted for right now. How will you get all of them back?
As far as relaying on bystanders to save your butt when its getting kicked, I would not count on it. Some will, but most will not. I have seen videos of shoot outs and to my disbelief most people stand there shocked and don't do anything, not even try and save there own skin. Or they go into black and are useless, same will happen when they see similar violence (knife/blunt object attack)
As far as someone calling a LEO to bail you out thats fine if you live in the city. But even then it might take 3 minutes. I am a LEO for a County. My back up is usually 10 minutes or more away. Possibly a little less, but that depends on weather/road conditions/staffing level. So if my backup is that far away, so is a citizens. Of course you could get lucky and one could be less than a minute
away. But when you are getting kicked in the head you don't have a minute. I don't like to rely on luck either. Most of our Country is rural with small law enforcement agencies. I am not saying your local law enforcement will not be able to help you, but why place all your eggs in one basket and assume they can get to you before its to late.
I have come across several victims that should be dead today but got lucky. And I know of some that are dead today because they didn't have a chance to fight back. Some are/were women, that could not have overpowered their attacker period......they would have needed a gun!
I recommend everyone that is legally able to and morally willing to own/use a weapon do so. Learn how/when to use it and be prepared. If you are not willing to use it, then don't own it. Because then you do risk it being used against you.
I carry a weapon with me 99% of the time and try to get more of my fellow LEO's to also. I do it for myself, my family and so that I don't have to standby and let harm come to someone else either. Most coppers I know do not. Probably because its a pain in the butt sometimes. But they have a choice to carry or not to carry. I want to see citizens have that choice also. Due to our current Governor being re-elected that will probably not happen for a while. :mad:
Obviously we cannot hand out guns like candy. But you will find that most people that want to CCW are responsible adults that take the responsibility seriously. They educate themselves and pay for good training even when it is not required. You will always have your fair share of idiots, but you cannot punish the group for a few morons. Many times when a city/state allows CCW for the first time the anti crowd cries that there will be blood baths in the street and shoot outs will be a daily occurrence. Yet this never happens. Why is this?
Oh and how about we actually lock-up or :gth the scum that use a gun in a crime. I am still in shock when I run a criminal history on some of these people and they are on the street less than 10 years after being convicted of Homicide! Armed Robbery, Felon in possession of a firearm, Homicide, Attempted Homicide, these are all things that people do a little time for and are back out. The American people as a whole need to get a little sick of this and hold their elected officials accountable for allowing predators like this to be among us. :rant:
I agree that the one or two guns your not using for SD should be secured in some way. I see more than I like to taken in burglaries. I wont say a gun safe should be required, but it is a good idea. This would help cut down on illegal guns.
Good point guys, I was typing my post when several of you posted so I didn't mean to repeat about certain things.
This goes hand in hand with the discussion so I thought I would post it. I don't agree with everything Grossman has to say (in his books) but he is right on with a lot of it. As far as what is below I would have to say these are some very true words.
If you are at all interested in taking care of yourself and your family then I recommend you pick up his books and give them a read. Very educational and informative. Even if you are not I recommend them. It will help you understand what happens to your body/mind when you are fighting for your life. Might help you understand why "that" police officer/armed citizen did what they did. We (public) are so "educated" by movies and TV that we misjudge peoples actions in these types of situations. If nothing else it will give you a deeper respect and appreciation for our soldiers, past/present/future.
Looks like its too long, I will have to make two posts.
On Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves
By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, U.S. Army (Ret.) www.killology.com
One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind,
gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by
accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per
100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000
per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are
not inclined to hurt one another.
Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time
record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million
Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent
crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year.
Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat
offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably
less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the
situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but
violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens
are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other,
except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the
pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday
it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive
without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other
warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they
protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they
need warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the
wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are
wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You
better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are
capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is
not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live
to protect the flock and confront the wolf."...
If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy
productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence
and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an
aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for
violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you
have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's
path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the
universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,
wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which
is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is
evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen,
which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire
alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.
But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times
more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence
than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of
violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm
their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like
the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The
difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will
not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the
lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot
work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a
republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder
that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't
tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at
the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16.
The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs,
spray paint himself white, and go,
"Baa."
Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to
hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough
high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would
not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not
bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school
was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms
and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging,
sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about
their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded
hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt
differently about their law enforcement officers and military
personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a
sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a
sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on
the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump
in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the
young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are
a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns
when needed right along with the young ones.
Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that
day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep,
that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one
of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I
wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have
made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior
and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be
there. You want to be able to make a difference.
There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior,
but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he
is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98
percent of the population.
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals
convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious,
predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law
enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically
targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior
and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in
Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to
protect itself.
Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be
genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that
most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to
say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.
Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you
recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on
his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the
hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that
had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the
words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the
other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a
transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business
people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they
fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on
the ground.
"Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself
after that?"
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible
evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke
Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands
of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the
sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way,
and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a
critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It
is a conscious, moral decision.
If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,
but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you
and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog
there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but
the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you
will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be
a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a
conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and
prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the
wolf comes knocking at the door.
For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are
well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or
inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.
Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very
good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying.
You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of
worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.
I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the
break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in
church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my
gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he
told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft.
Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged
individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down
fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved
every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son
was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body
and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you
have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"
Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer
was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and
would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be
enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that
the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire
extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not
work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can
happen and that there must be safeguards against them.
Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too
often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the
sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it
would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and
killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were
unprepared for that day?"
It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness
and horror when the wolf shows up.
Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth
when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun,
you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is
not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you
do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your
fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth.
Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb
post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone
trying to come to terms with our current world situation:
"...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect.
For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't
so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more
unsettling."
Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely
in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the
truth on some level.
And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of
his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.
If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and
you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep,
pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on"
24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are
authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just
take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."
This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no
dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a
matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject,
head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate
warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most
of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in
America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep
took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors,
and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The
degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and
denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will
survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth.