Any doctors here?

Im currently studying for my MCAT and while I received sage advice from a current med school student telling me not to give so much power to the MCAT, I cant help but be terrified by it at certain times and imagine the worst happening, getting a low score. I take it September 1 an I'm spending my summer days studying 5-7 hours for this thing. Any doctors on here that can give me some advice other than find another career which most doctors tell me? Anybody else who's taken a test that determines their future career?

From what I hear, med school like most graduate programs look at the whole picture, not just your test score. For instance, I have a friend who's daughter, 4.0 gpa, scored extremely high on the MCAT only to not be accepted into the med schools to which she applied. After a couple of years of trying, she gave up and got a business degree just to get on with her life. When it comes down to it, I think your gpa, community involvment, volunteer experiences, letters of recommendation, and how well you do on your interview, will speak volumes to being successful, more so than just a high test result. I am not a doctor, I just have experience playing the game.

I hear you Rearden. While I have hundreds of volunteer hours at a hospital, years of experience in leadership/community programs, lots of unique extracurriculars, and great letters of rec, I screwed up badly in one class (dam Organic Chemistry) which hurt my GPA, so that's definitely not my strong point which means my MCAT is the redeeming factor for that and I can't help but feel like my whole future is on the line in just this one test. While I do have a long time to take it over should need be, I want to nail it the first time so I don't have to worry about I again.

That's something I never understood about the US educaiton system: what is the significance of volunteering for your education?
I would expect schools to screen prospective science students on their knowledge, hobby projects and relevant achievements. I don't see how volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter has any bearing on that. Mind you, they are valuable contributions to be sure, but I don't see how that is relevant for e.g. getting a masters degree in physics.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

That's something I never understood about the US educaiton system: what is the significance of volunteering for your education?
I would expect schools to screen prospective science students on their knowledge, hobby projects and relevant achievements. I don't see how volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter has any bearing on that. Mind you, they are valuable contributions to be sure, but I don't see how that is relevant for e.g. getting a masters degree in physics.

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couldent agree more bruno, i think that its total bs, most highschools require so many hrs of time volentered (mandatory voleenteered) in a community project or service.

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Originally Posted by animalwithin

Im currently studying for my MCAT and while I received sage advice from a current med school student telling me not to give so much power to the MCAT, I cant help but be terrified by it at certain times and imagine the worst happening, getting a low score. I take it September 1 an I'm spending my summer days studying 5-7 hours for this thing. Any doctors on here that can give me some advice other than find another career which most doctors tell me? Anybody else who's taken a test that determines their future career?

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animalwithin,

I'm not an MD, but I am a university professor who has sat on graduate admission committees.

ReardenSteel is correct. Graduate and professional schools do look at a student's whole picture, not just your MCAT or GRE test score. That includes standardized test scores, academic performance in undergraduate courses, extracurricular/volunteer activities, and letters of recommendation.

That being said, the standardized test score (ie. MCAT) becomes important as a filter. Admission committees often use them as a filter to winnow the number of applicants down to a reasonable number of applicants for serious consideration. They will set a minimum combined score and any applicant who fails to meet that minimum is eliminated from consideration. Then they look at other parts of the applicant's record as well as letters of recommendation, and based on those factors begin to select students for the entering class. Extracurricular/volunteer activities are only a factor when measured against the student's undergraduate GPA. A student with a 4.0 GPA who also participated in extracurricular/volunteer activities can be viewed as a stronger candidate than one who has a 4.0 without any such activities as part of their record.

How badly do you want to be an MD? In addition to studying hard for your MCAT, where you apply to Medical School can be a factor. Your better known or more prestigious professional/graduate programs get hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants. That is especially true during periods of economic downturn like currently, when students usually try to postpone their entry into the job market by applying to graduate/professional schools.

You may want to consider creating a list of schools (approx. 7) that represent the schools you really want to go to, a first tier of schools that are your first choice, second tier of schools that are your second choice and a third group that are acceptable, but not your first or second choice. Additionally, if the school you are applying to requires three letters of recommendation, get six. Finally, in the personal statement of your application address the issue of your poor grade in organic chemistry head-on. If it was due to illness or some other factor beyond your control, then perhaps the admission committee's members will take that into consideration. As a last resort, consider retaking organic chemistry during the summer at another university and get a higher grade in that subject. That will provide any admissions committee with concrete proof of your true academic ability in that subject as well as your tenacity to be the best medical student and physician you can possibly be.

I hope that this advice helps.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

That's something I never understood about the US educaiton system: what is the significance of volunteering for your education?
I would expect schools to screen prospective science students on their knowledge, hobby projects and relevant achievements. I don't see how volunteering at a soup kitchen or shelter has any bearing on that. Mind you, they are valuable contributions to be sure, but I don't see how that is relevant for e.g. getting a masters degree in physics.

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The significance is that it separates people who probably have similar achievements in a certain field. Graduate programs are competitive and the schools can only accept so many students per semester, so once you're dealing with a field of applicants who are all academically qualified to enter the master's program, the school will then look at things that are more indicative of a person's character as a member of the school and community. It's similar to how the job hiring process can be here when you have multiple applicants qualified for one open position.

While I agree that mandatory volunteering is somewhat oxymoronic and self-contradictory, there is plenty to be said for volunteering in the community and the people who do it because they are concerned and they care. I would hope medical schools see that as an important criterion in the selection process. In my office, we find volunteering very important in terms of defining character and value it in the hiring and selection process.

I have seen too much life and death to be other than a cynic, who was once an idealist. Please take what I say with a grain of salt as I realize I'm likely to start an argument. I am entirely prepared to defend my position, so those of you who may be offended, you should heed this warning and preparatory apology. The result of my attitude is that I am not in administration or education and so I have already paid for my sin.

I went to med school when I was 41. After several undergraduate excursions, a whole bunch of graduate school finding myself, then being asked during the ritual oral exam abuse why I wasn't going to med school. But I've put 35 years into health care, starting out as a wheel chair motor and immodestly bootstrapping myself up through the system to this point.

The MCAT is just as has been said, a screening tool. Med school is a life of testing. One damn test after another, every week, twice a week. If you think you are putting in the time to study now, you have no idea what you are getting into. You will not have enough time to prepare for any test. You will fail tests. One of my other classmates who'd attended the graduate education program same as me and I agreed that the only point to med school is not learning anything about medicine, but learning how to take tests. If you're good at tests, you'll do well on the MCAT despite what you know, not because of it. The other thing to be taught by taking tests a lot, is that every patient is a test. You will pass some and you will not pass others, and the only thing that is certain is there will be another exam five minutes after you finish the one in front of you. An exam is nothing compared to failing a patient. The consequences are much more expensive.

The most important new wrinkle in the MCAT is the 30 minute portion of writing skills. That is a big score to do well on. Why? Because medicine is a world of keeping records. If you can't write well (or ignore it in the US) lawyers will render your corpse for it's valuable oils to be sold on the open market. 60% of my daily time is spend fiddling with records of some kind. A badly written report can mean the difference between a fatal and non fatal mistake.

As to the subject of volunteerism...and why I suggest that experience is helpful...I have seen over my career, many physicians who should not have ever been allowed into medical school and many who wish they had never gone. The reasons are many. Their families wanted them to be a doctor "just like mom or dad," but they all wanted to be lumberjacks or barbers. They probably would have been better off if they had a choice. As a result their bedside manner was crap despite having good technical or intellectual skills. They had no idea that disgusting bodily secretions and the simple grunt work of health care would take it's toll on their durability. When it's obvious that your doctor hates the work, you will not have confidence in their work and this produces a negative situation for all of us.

If you can show that you've been working at the bedside, handling body parts and human discharge, being puked on, yelled at by the unhappy or those in pain, dealing with the misery and suffering of the human condition and you still want to do this job...you'll probably get in. Experience is that important, and if I were allowed anywhere near an admissions committee, I would value that above nearly all else. I had far more respect for my med school classmates who worked the night shift in the local nursing home than the grinds who topped the class every test.

Having letters of recommendation from an ordinary college professor can be helpful in regard to the opinion of the admission committee to determine your academic ability to survive medical school, but IMO they don't give a damn about asking if you will be a good physician. One of the admissions committee dared to ask me what value a PhD in Education would have for a doctor, as in setting the stage for his not wanting to put me on the list as a potential candidate having wasted all that important time doing something not related directly to medicine. I reminded him that the root definition of physician is teacher (in both Greek and Latin). We moved along to the next question, but he never forgot my smartass, and very correct, response to his idiotic question. The reality of medicine is that someday you will be required to teach and you will not be taught one iota of how to during medical school. Learn that as well when you have the time.

Perhaps more important will be a letter from someone who works in health care who can describe your ability to survive the world of work. Someone who has seen the results of you working the wards and can measure your true potential for success in a very strange world. One of my favorite aphorisms is the following paraphrase, written by a professor of medicine from a now defunct med school in Missouri somewhere back in 1967. "It is not possible to teach all there is to know about medicine. By the time a student graduates, half of what we taught will be obsolete and half of what they need to know will not have been discovered yet. What we must do is teach them how to teach themselves because once they are gone from here, they will not have us to give them the information they need to survive the future." That statement is true for just about every job I can think of. Remember, I did say no one will teach you how to teach. It's up to you to solve this contradiction.

The rest is a matter of luck, or faith depending on your cosmology, and persistence in living up to your potential.

I spent nine years in the trenches, teaching biology labs at a Big 10 university, and also worked for a couple of years as a test editor on the MCAT. Here's the secret: Learn your biology, learn to read and write well, and always trust your first answer. Be confident that the first thing your memory pushed up was the correct thing.

I taught a few semesters in a course for nonmajors, and it was SO FUN not to have any premeds. My students were truly curious about the anatomy, the physiology, why the small intestine was narrow and long while the large intestine was wide and short. In review sessions they asked questions about biology.

In the majors/premed course, I was tortured by variations of "What's on the test?" Premeds were the worst. Most of them had forgotten what curiosity was, and a grade was their goal, not the knowledge. I'd answer "Well, I suspect there will be a lot of biology on the test. Does anybody have a question about biology?" Roomful of blank faces. If you master the knowledge, you'll earn the grade. If you focus on grades, you'll diminish your ability to build a cumulative body of knowledge. If you value the knowledge over the grade, your instructors will be quite fond of you.

In my opinion, the very best thing that you can do for your MCAT is to quit studying for it at least three days before the actual testing date, chill out, sleep well, then go into the test calm and well-rested and trust your first answer every time.

Best wishes to you.

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Originally Posted by commiecat

The significance is that it separates people who probably have similar achievements in a certain field. Graduate programs are competitive and the schools can only accept so many students per semester, so once you're dealing with a field of applicants who are all academically qualified to enter the master's program, the school will then look at things that are more indicative of a person's character as a member of the school and community. It's similar to how the job hiring process can be here when you have multiple applicants qualified for one open position.

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That 'could' be true if it wasn't expected. If n hours of volunteer work becomes just an item for schools to tick off a list, then students will do it just because it is expected. It will no longer say anything about their character. If you the school said '200 hours on a treadmill' they'd do it just the same, for the same motivation.

EDIT: if the volunteer work is relevant to the field (like mike explained) then I agree that it is indicative and valudable

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Originally Posted by roughkype

...worked for a couple of years as a test editor on the MCAT.

...and it was SO FUN not to have any premeds. ...In the majors/premed course, I was tortured by variations of "What's on the test?" Premeds were the worst. Most of them had forgotten what curiosity was, and a grade was their goal, not the knowledge.

In my opinion, the very best thing that you can do for your MCAT is to quit studying for it at least three days before the actual testing date, chill out, sleep well, then go into the test calm and well-rested and trust your first answer every time.

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I've been on the exam preparation side as well, but for professional board exams. The same questions come up about what's on the test. Given the exam development timeline, everything on the test is at a minimum three years old anyway. It's pointless to want to know specific content for something like that. Better to be a generalist and flexible when it comes to knowledge.

That's just solid advice RoughK.

All the premed classes were increased exercises in stress response with everyone trying to make the cut rather than learning anything. I remember one miserable semester where I tanked Org Chem, Physics and Animal Biology but got an A+ in Microanatomy. My advisor could not understand that ratio. I explained that in the Microanatomy course we "got to play with an electron microscope and that made it both fun and interesting and no premeds were running around trying to screw up everyone else's lab results to improve their curve." It's no amazing thing to see where ethics and morality go when a grade is on the line. I abandoned hope for entry to med school after that experience. Now look at me years later, I be a doc. Go figure.

+1 to the advice about three days before the test. Almost to a word, that statement is something I've repeated to many an exam taker. The only item I would add is "Read something for enjoyment for a change. Some pulp novel of no educational significance so you don't lose the joy of reading for its own sake." And a cup of coffee. A little caffeine will help, a little, for the first couple hours, after that, you're on your own. :)

When you talk top of the line schools everyone who applies has fantastic grades and does super in the tests. So, how do you decide who to accept? Well, first if your daddy can give a big donation you are assured acceptance but if he can't then they look for the "well rounded student" meaning the volunteer work maybe being on the school paper staff, being class president or being on the school sports team. Things like that.

Thanks to all who answered!! Lots of great stuff here. jhenry, I want to be a doc more than anything. I've had to traverse miles of bullshit just to get through premed stuff (like horrible advisors telling me to give up because of my screw up in Organic chemistry, taking classes that I really didnt enjoy at all just because they were requirements) and I'm very well aware of the long road ahead in medical school and beyond. As for what schools I want to go to, I have a a handful in mind. I'll be retaking Organic again in Fall, I despise Organic chemistry with a passion and I"ll be the first to admit my failures. Mike Blue, the writing/verbal on the MCAT is the only section I truly enjoy. I LOVE reading and writing, i get excited for that part haha. In all honesty, I LOVE classes that involved the human body. Anatomy, physiology, cell bio, even biochemistry, I loved all those classes. I couldn't stand the physics and chemistry and all the other stuff they require us to take, especially knowing that I had to do well in them inspite of me not liking them, which is why premeds are like that. We can't take a chance to breathe and absorb the material, its always go, go, go and get A's, its easy to lose sight of what we're learning and why. I have one more semester of classes in Fall, and I take my MCAT September 1. My GPA, inspite of my mistakes, is not bad, but I really feel like a strong MCAT, especially coupled with all my other stuff, is what will get me in. As for taking a couple days off before the test, I fully plan to do that, lots of people have been telling me to take a whole week off.

I'm not a doctor, and I don't play one on TV, but I do work for one of the big test prep companies. Having seen things from the inside, I can say that the test prep companies spend a lot of time and money studying the tests, developing techniques to beat them, creating practice problems and exams, and teaching their instructors how to teach the material. I definitely know that the classes can be expensive, but many guarantee improvements. I would suggest, at the very least, that you look into it.

PS - I was a physics major in college, and I TA'ed classes that premed kids took. One professor told me a story about a premed kid who asked why he had to take physics. The professor answered "So idiots can't be doctors." While I think that statement is a bit harsh, I think it's pretty undeniable that, in order to do physics, you must learn to think in a logical, orderly way, and you must learn how to problem solve systematically.

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Originally Posted by ReardenSteel

From what I hear, med school like most graduate programs look at the whole picture, not just your test score. For instance, I have a friend who's daughter, 4.0 gpa, scored extremely high on the MCAT only to not be accepted into the med schools to which she applied. After a couple of years of trying, she gave up and got a business degree just to get on with her life. When it comes down to it, I think your gpa, community involvment, volunteer experiences, letters of recommendation, and how well you do on your interview, will speak volumes to being successful, more so than just a high test result. I am not a doctor, I just have experience playing the game.

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I'm going out on a limb and say your daughter is not a single mom and she is also white. Truth about the school system is if you are a "minority" or a single mom you will have an easier time getting into a school and also getting grants that you will not have to pay back.
As far as med school I highly encourage you to go the PA route. better autonomy, and more control over the course of your carreer. Plus you dont have the innsurance bills of an MD. Also look at going for a DO degree. Same privilges as an MD but may be easier to get into a program.

Paul

animalwithin,

Glad to hear that you benefited from our suggestions.

A lot of the courses you took or are taking as an undergraduate may appear to be b. s., but there is a rationale for the seeming madness.

Take Organic Chemistry for example. It may seem like just another hoop to jump through at this point, but there is a logical reason for future physicians taking it. Organic chemistry helps one learn about drugs' chemical structures as well as DNA these days. I'm certain that will come in handy use for you as a future doc when you must assess the therapeutic properties of a drug you are about to prescribe for a patient.

The human body is also made up of numerous chemicals that co-exist in a harmonious balance with each other. When you are making your hospital rounds as a medical intern, resident and hopefully an attending physician one day, you'll be reading a patient's chart with the lab results of his/her blood test(s) that will provide you with that info. You'll need to know, for example, when a patient's K level is too low--which can cause heart failure if it persists for a lengthy period of time.

Another is Physics. Just remember that it will help you understand and assess things such as blood flow, blood pressure, etc. later on in med school and as a practicing physician.

As for the pressure of making good grades...Believe me, that's nothing compared to the pressure you'll face when a sick patient's very life depends on the decisions you'll have to make about their treatment. As the previous post advised, learn to relax destress. You'll live longer.

Hang in there chief. Keep us posted on your progress. You're going to be a great physician. We're all pulling for you.

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Originally Posted by animalwithin

In all honesty, I LOVE classes that involved the human body. Anatomy, physiology, cell bio, even biochemistry, I loved all those classes. I couldn't stand the physics and chemistry and all the other stuff they require us to take, especially knowing that I had to do well in them inspite of me not liking them, which is why premeds are like that.

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The thing is that unless you are able to understand simple things like say how two molecules bind together (physics/chemistry) you will never be particularly good at understanding such an incredibly complex system as the human body. Here's a question to consider - why do you think being a doctor would be more interesting than being a chemist, or historian, or lawyer, or teacher?

I don't have direct experience with med school, but I have a friend who took that route after completing his doctoral decree in a field that is 'hard core science'. He started as a farm boy, almost flunked out of mediocre college, but by the time he figured out what he wants to do with his life he was an excellent scientist, had spent hundreds of hours volunteering at the local hospital (to know what it's really like and whether it is what he wants to do) and the juvie (teaching troubled kids as well as providing a role model) and he ended up going to the top med school (after being accepted to all of the top tier).

At this point, it seems you fit the conventional profile of a pre-med student, so you could think what distinguishes you from the rest of your peers in the applications pile. An impressive MCAT score and/or GPA certainly draws attention, if you can do it, and is the standard approach which most of your competition will take too, but may be you have something else as well. You already had plenty of excellent suggestions esp. from Mike Blue and jhenry, how much you benefit from them depends largely on your maturity level.

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Originally Posted by Str8Shooter

I'm going out on a limb and say your daughter is not a single mom and she is also white. Truth about the school system is if you are a "minority" or a single mom you will have an easier time getting into a school and also getting grants that you will not have to pay back.

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I really wish I didn't have to read this in this thread...

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Originally Posted by jhenry

animalwithin,

Glad to hear that you benefited from our suggestions.

A lot of the courses you took or are taking as an undergraduate may appear to be b. s., but there is a rationale for the seeming madness.

Take Organic Chemistry for example. It may seem like just another hoop to jump through at this point, but there is a logical reason for future physicians taking it. Organic chemistry helps one learn about drugs' chemical structures as well as DNA these days. I'm certain that will come in handy use for you as a future doc when you must assess the therapeutic properties of a drug you are about to prescribe for a patient.

The human body is also made up of numerous chemicals that co-exist in a harmonious balance with each other. When you are making your hospital rounds as a medical intern, resident and hopefully an attending physician one day, you'll be reading a patient's chart with the lab results of his/her blood test(s) that will provide you with that info. You'll need to know, for example, when a patient's K level is too low--which can cause heart failure if it persists for a lengthy period of time.

Another is Physics. Just remember that it will help you understand and assess things such as blood flow, blood pressure, etc. later on in med school and as a practicing physician.

As for the pressure of making good grades...Believe me, that's nothing compared to the pressure you'll face when a sick patient's very life depends on the decisions you'll have to make about their treatment. As the previous post advised, learn to relax destress. You'll live longer.

Hang in there chief. Keep us posted on your progress. You're going to be a great physician. We're all pulling for you.

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jhenry, you're the best, you don't know how much your words mean me, thanks so much!! Concerning physics and all that, I know it has its value somewhere, hard to see it now, but I understand what you're saying. I just wish "pre-med" was more centered around biology rather than courses like chemistry and physics. When this is all said and done, one day in the coming years I'm going to start a thread on here entitled: "I got into med school!!!!"

For some reason the multi-quote thing ran these back to front, but there's a lot of good stuff in here.

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Originally Posted by gugi

The thing is that unless you are able to understand simple things like say how two molecules bind together (physics/chemistry) you will never be particularly good at understanding such an incredibly complex system as the human body. Here's a question to consider - why do you think being a doctor would be more interesting than being a chemist, or historian, or lawyer, or teacher?

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All those things are interesting. My wife would kill me if I thought about going to law school now.

There are three things that teachers should understand more clearly than any others about their profession. What does a learner Need to Know, what things are merely Good to Know and what things are Nice to Know? The ratio of those three items explains why so much time for both the teacher and learner are wasted and are the source of much frustration for both groups. As an educator, I ask the question why we don't spend all our time on Need to Know stuff and then expect all our learners to pass the test with 100% grades? As a student my first question is, "Okay Professor, if I can pass the test with a 70% score, what 30% don't I need to know so I won't waste precious study time on useless s***?" The Prof will say "it's all important." "But Professor, if I can miss 30% on this test, and Bill here theoretically can miss an entirely different 30% and Bob over here can miss another different 30% and we all still pass isn't 100% of what you're teaching pretty much useless?"

See what kind of trouble I can cause? I really love asking them this question because it does illustrate that they can't figure out what a student really Needs to Know.

Going into this whole process, I was frustrated by the lack of any apparent value to Inorganic Chemistry with regard to human chemical systems. Some of the rest, but especially, Organic Chemistry was the equivalent of the "flunk out class" designed to weed out the non hackers (Go watch the first minutes of Full Metal Jacket again, the doctrine is just the same but easier to understand and by God, R. L. Ermey is entertaining.) Biochemistry made a damn sight more sense to what docs eventually wind up doing.

Now, since I started smelting my own steel, there is a ton of stuff bubbling up from the basement of Inorganic Chem that is pretty useful. I admit to some chagrin over that. :) You never know when you might need something later when you believed it was completely useless at the time. Watch the first and last bits of Monty Python and the Holy Grail for the object lesson there. "You have to know these things to be King..." ;)

But, some understanding of cosmology is necessary, philosophy is necessary and especially the study of human behavior (psych stuff) because you are going to deal with human beings and they are all different with different values and motivations that generate the majority of unpredictability in this business. Bio and Chem are fascinating by themselves but when you add in the Black Box called the human mind it becomes intriguingly chaotic. Most Necessary is to understand yourself. If you fail there, you will not be able to separate yourself from them (transference and countertransference, okay yah it's old stuff but surprisingly operative if you observe carefully).

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...I don't have direct experience with med school, but I have a friend who took that route after completing his doctoral decree in a field that is 'hard core science'. He started as a farm boy, almost flunked out of mediocre college, but by the time he figured out what he wants to do with his life he was an excellent scientist, had spent hundreds of hours volunteering at the local hospital (to know what it's really like and whether it is what he wants to do) and the juvie (teaching troubled kids as well as providing a role model) and he ended up going to the top med school (after being accepted to all of the top tier).

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Sounds like the story of my life. Figuring out what you want to be when you grow up is a good summation of the process of human development. If you cannot live out your dream, collected during adolescence, you will have a life of frustration. Now some of us wanted to fly jets, but were stuck with coke bottle glasses. Some dreams are impractical or unrealistic and we have to learn to adapt to what we can find fascinating. Keep some flexibility and remain persistent until you can achieve a reasonable level of satisfaction. Some of us simply had to take the hardest longest path to get there. We would not have been really ready otherwise. I'm convinced that happiness is illusory, but satisfaction can be something real.

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Originally Posted by jhenry

...A lot of the courses you took or are taking as an undergraduate may appear to be b. s., but there is a rationale for the seeming madness.

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Here is dangerous ground. Yes, the content can be useful for building up a base of knowledge. But, in operation it can be sorely abused, indeed reinforce the madness, the addiction to money and power. One of my graduate school classmates wrote a paper that made complete sense when she looked at the characteristics of professional educational programs (medicine, nursing etc.) in health care and proved the case that they were the same behaviors exhibited by ritualized child abusers and completely paid for by the victims. Think about that for a moment. There are news stories all the time now about how hazing is bad for society and yet all our professional schools engage in the very same processes hidden in the guise of training the very people who hold our lives in their hands. There should be no wonder that these stresses induce unwanted reactions in our providers.

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Take Organic Chemistry for example. It may seem like just another hoop to jump through at this point, but there is a logical reason for future physicians taking it. Organic chemistry helps one learn about drugs' chemical structures as well as DNA these days. I'm certain that will come in handy use for you as a future doc when you must assess the therapeutic properties of a drug you are about to prescribe for a patient.

The human body is also made up of numerous chemicals that co-exist in a harmonious balance with each other. When you are making your hospital rounds as a medical intern, resident and hopefully an attending physician one day, you'll be reading a patient's chart with the lab results of his/her blood test(s) that will provide you with that info. You'll need to know, for example, when a patient's K level is too low--which can cause heart failure if it persists for a lengthy period of time.

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These are true statements, however at this point, I don't analyze the chemistry as much as checking to see if the test result falls between the high and low values and thinking about what to do to counteract the abnormal. The thought processes operating now are not so far removed from a chef following a recipe. There just isn't enough time in the work day to consider everything and all the folks who depend on your decision want only that, a decision, so they can move on with their job, or recovery. But, when the problem's solutions are not obvious, problem solving skills require a good base from which to operate. In some ways you could function from the recipe alone, but strong analytical skills require information to work on. That makes the difference between the merely good and the very good.

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...Another is Physics. Just remember that it will help you understand and assess things such as blood flow, blood pressure, etc. later on in med school and as a practicing physician.

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LOL. And to figure out why the 30 year old driving the car with her mom in the right seat in a T-bone accident on the driver's side door came out of the accident without a scratch and her mom fractured her right hip.

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...As for the pressure of making good grades...Believe me, that's nothing compared to the pressure you'll face when a sick patient's very life depends on the decisions you'll have to make about their treatment. As the previous post advised, learn to relax destress. You'll live longer.

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Indeed, great advice. Knowing yourself to separate your identity and self esteem from those around you, having a strong internal locus of control are priceless. Ritual adherence to some method of releasing stress will be of incalculable value. I don't golf. It's an insane game foisted on us by the Scots, but then who else would enjoy such a joke? I go beat on hot irons. Some people here enjoy collecting rocks and the odd salvageable bits of sharpish stuff.

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Originally Posted by Str8Shooter

...As far as med school I highly encourage you to go the PA route. better autonomy, and more control over the course of your carreer. Plus you dont have the innsurance bills of an MD. Also look at going for a DO degree. Same privilges as an MD but may be easier to get into a program.

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In contrast however, of the 205 people who started in my class in med school (DO), two of us were nurses, and fifty were PAC's. Why would that many want to go back to med school after PA school?

They do the same work as a doctor for half the income. In point of fact, the costs/overhead for a PAC are the same as for a physician including malpractice. The risks in decision making are the same. There is significantly much less autonomy for a PAC as it is still considered a dependent practice according to most practice acts in all states although they should really get the politicians to change that. The nurses have a better deal with Nurse Practitioners because their practice is more independent. Plus all the mid-level providers have to content with the jealousy of their supervising physicians who consider them a threat to their income because they take away patients from their practices. Let's see, all the responsibility and half the paycheck? I'd go to med school.

It's not easier to get into a DO program. The requirements are the same, but the curriculum gives you the experience in cracking every knuckle in the human body on top of all the other allopathic stuff. The work is the same for either branch and the ridiculous prejudices are slowly but surely fading. We are not chiropractors. If they would tell the truth they stole it all from us in the first place. There are good and bad in all the types of practice and many who would have been good but never took the shot or had the chance. My barber is a better psychologist than a lot I've met, and that's but one example.

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Originally Posted by holli4pirating

....PS - I was a physics major in college, and I TA'ed classes that premed kids took. One professor told me a story about a premed kid who asked why he had to take physics. The professor answered "So idiots can't be doctors." While I think that statement is a bit harsh, I think it's pretty undeniable that, in order to do physics, you must learn to think in a logical, orderly way, and you must learn how to problem solve systematically.

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This is good too. You can't work in any business without problem solving skills. I would add a liberal dose of teaching kids at a very early age how to play checkers and chess. Both of those games teach the even more (Need to Know) critical skill of consequential thinking. Sometimes that's missing in medicine and elsewhere, because the recipe followers just dose the patient with whatever the standard of care says and they do not stop to examine the consequences of their actions.

Not all people react well to the variety of pills we try to get them to take. If you watch even one Erectile Dysfunction advertisement, the idea of a four hour erection requiring a trip to the Emergency Room is no joke. And the fact that another recipe follower may have given the patient a handful of other pills that do not play well together in the previously discussed chemical soup is a real possibility. Neither provider may be paying close attention to what else is going on with a system that is not their area of expertise and there is a real risk that a generalist like me is not in charge of seeing the big picture for the whole patient. Someone has to think about the consequences of their actions. All of us mean well, but that does not guarantee it will turn out that way. One of the major faults in the present US system of health care, IMO, is that there are too few people responsible for seeing the whole and too many specialty services who don't concern themselves with anything other than their very narrow view. There are exceptions.

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Originally Posted by animalwithin

...and I"ll be the first to admit my failures.

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You will fail. That is guaranteed. Get used to it. Try to prevent it when you can and own it when you can't. Dodging responsibility will earn you the disrespect of all the good folks you work with, and time spent gaining a legal education you will wish you hadn't had to. The best docs I have ever met can recite the details of every one of their mistakes with an intensity intended to make sure that none of us ever make the same mistake they did. The hardest thing to learn is to forgive yourself.

Professionalism is a state of mind, not something that you wear on the outside of your body, not reflected in any of the wallpaper from any school you ever attended, not something you can ever say about your self.

Wow, excellent post Mike. I especially like your discussion of consequential thinking.

That was deep Mike, great post. I can go on and on about how I think the education system should be, but thats a subject for another thread haha. Makes me think about a lot of things. I am going for DO, makes things slightly easier for me, but not by much. I'm fighting a tremendous uphill battle with my major screw up in Organic, thats why I'm feeling overwhelmed. This thread has definetely helped a lot, makes me realize how much life I've yet to live and experience coming from all you wise folks.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

All those things are interesting. My wife would kill me if I thought about going to law school now.

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And the obvious solution would be to categorize such knowledge as a 'nice to know' instead of 'need to know' :)
Of course, I don't claim expertise in marriage...

I don't think what students 'need to know' is all that much. For example, in physics it boils down to 'the world that we can describe is symmetric and linear'. In mathematics the only thing one needs to know is how to count the fingers on one hand. Everything else is abstracting and generalizing these simple things.

In my opinion, the most valuable thing students learn is what is summarized by 'analytical/critical thinking'. For example most of the threads in this section and elsewhere on the forum are explicit demonstrations of how unable most people are to distinguish between opinion and fact, or postulating something and deriving it. The simple concepts of larger and smaller seems to be lost on a most people when they are presented with a simple ad which boils down to having them compare the size of the dash in >-< vs <->

When I go to a doctor I have billions of 'symptoms'. His job is to figure out what are the ones that are 'important' for making me see him and make a recommendation what to do about it so that I can be back to my life. Having the medical knowledge is necessary but certainly not sufficient for that, otherwise we'd have it all done by robots long time ago.

At the end of the day when somebody is good at 'rational thinking' they're good at pretty much anything they do. When you get into something it all can be extremely interesting whether it's art, cosmology, agriculture, medicine, law, politics, religion, business, military...
Of course, they don't pay the same, and everybody is in different circumstances with different emotional preferences, different values, different ambitions, different shortcomings...

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

We are not chiropractors. If they would tell the truth they stole it all from us in the first place.

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Maybe not quite as simple as that.

I truly appreciate your posts, but I saw this little jab and just couldn't let it pass. Knowing that it is mostly unrelated to the OP's original post I submit the following link to an article that I found. The article does contain some very interesting medical history that is centered around manipulative therapy and some of you may find it to be good reading.

A History of Manipulative Therapy

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Originally Posted by honedright

Maybe not quite as simple as that. ...

A History of Manipulative Therapy

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My statement was hyperbolic, could have been said better and I appreciate you pointing that out. I would make clear my desire to temper that somewhat. I was the beneficiary of a chiropractor who chose to go through an osteopathic medical program. Indeed many of my techniques derive from what I learned there. Sadly, no matter whether allopathy, osteopathy or chiropractic there are those with "good hands" and those without, and many who paint all with a single brush.

The article was fascinating but leaves out any discussion of the rivalry between Still and Palmer, and does not mention the difficult to verify reports that Palmer was a student of A.T. Still for some time. Still recalls it in his writings but Palmer makes no mention of it. Since both are dead, along with any contemporaries who could validate it, it will remain anecdotal.

Having been a student of Asian medical techniques including bonesetting, the parallels are very difficult to ignore. Still does admit he learned a great deal from the Chinese who had come to Missouri as a result of working for the railroad companies. I think it's important to know one's root traditions and to clarify them when possible.

Animal...
Let me give you my story... I am just about to start 3rd year, and am currently studying for the step one board exam which quite literally makes the MCAT look like a tea party. This exam will quite literally dictate what specialty I will be able to find residencies for.
That being said, the MCAT is still important too. So sweat it, but not too much. When I was attempting to enter med school I didn't have the greatest grades. My composite (the combination of GPA and MCAT) was just barely good enough to get me interviews at my desired schools (mid range) but did little to set me apart from the other applicants. I had a 3.65 GPA(bad) and a 34(good) on the MCATs. I had a ton of real world experience but little volunteer work, which actually worked against me. If you're living at home with your parental units, then try to spend as much time volunteering in a medical setting as possible. Yeah, volunteering can be a pain in the a** but it shows the med school a couple of things. First that you are interested enough in the medical profession to do it for 'free'. Second, that you are willing and capable of service. Don't underestimate the importance of the second aspect of this. Physicians as a profession are servants of the people and through the process of medical school you will relatively quickly loose all autonomy in your life. By the 3rd year, your schedule will be forever dictated by the medical field.
BUT, back to admission... Every school sets a baseline composite score at which you must be at or above to be accepted for an interview. Once you are accepted for an interview it means that you have met their academic standards. The rest of it is about you as a person... If you and the school are a good fit, and the other aspects of your life that would make you a stand out applicant.
Retaking the class is a good idea to boost your GPA, but isn't absolutely needed. If you do retake it, just be sure to do better the second time! You've gotten some great advice here on this thread. My advise is to study hard, learn to answer and interpret questions well (the MCATs are about critical thinking), and be confident.
When you do get into medical school, first - celebrate responsibly, second - take a deep breath and enjoy the ride... It's a crap-load of information all at once (you'll do a whole semester of undergrad biochem in about a week to 11 days), but if you focus, buckle-down and study hard - and I mean REALLY hard (yes, harder than you ever studied in undergrad) you CAN do it. It is totally doable. Let us all know when you get in!

p.s.
if you don't get in this year, review the schools that you're applying to and see if they need to be adjusted down a bit. If you get an interview with a school but don't get in, apply to that school again. The majority of schools give bonus points for persistance. And most of all, don't get down on yourself and don't give up.