My first go at hollow ground

Evening all,

This is my fist crack at a hollow ground razor, it’s nearly 10/8” fixed blade with a natural horn blade guard fixed with pewter wedges and brass pins.
And it shaves as good as it looks!
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And these are three Did a little while ago

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I'm still enjoying myself too much to call making these razors work, and I can't see that changing any time soon!

still envious of people who can make there own razors. they sure look good to me. i personally prefer a more traditional look, not that there's anything wrong with these do you sell them or just collect them? i would have a hard time getting rid of something i made that nice.

Nice mild design :<0) In a medieval sort of way. Very cool.

Thanks tintin,

I do have to sell them to buy materials and toys to make more of them (and continue my razor addiction), but I don't sell them here so we cant talk about sales the the mods have warned me about that. If your interested PM me.

Nice work I really like all the little details on your design. Glad you are enjoying making something so great

You are a very talented craftsman, how do some of the more radical designs shave? They really have "cool factor" for sure.

Thanks guys, Shooter they all shave really great even the big buggers although they can be a handful, they can be a little difficult to strop at first but once you've got the hang of that particular razor its ok. The thing is no matter how cool looking it is if it cant do the job it's intended for then whats the point in making it, function has to be the first thing to worry about then throw in some design and a little art but it has to be used as a razor 1st and foremost.

Do you take commissions ? :)

Seriously though, in their own way, these are a bit extreme, but gorgeous nonetheless.

I just love your fixed blade with its cute guard :)

What kind of steel are you using? I like the third one a lot. What size is the blade and type of grind. Quarter hollow? I don't think I could use the larger razors very well. Seems like you are having a lot of fun though. Good for you.


Mike

Wow, that's a beast! Nice work.

That is some seriously beautiful grinding and finishing.

VERY nicely done!:bow

What type of grinder/sander are you using and what wheel diameter are you running?

They are all amazing but I especially like the creative blade guard...

What a great triplet of razors. The fixed one looks so aggressive, but has a real medieval look to it.

Beautiful work....sheesh....I'm re-reading Frank Herbert's, "Dune" right now and looking at that blade, the Litany Against Fear starting going through my head, "Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death...."

Gulp! :medvl:

Hi mgilndo,

I'm manly using 01 tool steel once its been heat treated and oil quenched three times it holds it's edge really, really well.
Up until the last one (the fixed blade) they've all been wedges but I've got a new toy for the workshop so I can now do some hollow grinding, the fixed blade looks more like a quarter hollow to me.

Drew

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3Drew101

Hi mgilndo,

I'm manly using 01 tool steel once its been heat treated and oil quenched three times it holds it's edge really, really well.
Up until the last one (the fixed blade) they've all been wedges but I've got a new toy for the workshop so I can now do some hollow grinding, the fixed blade looks more like a quarter hollow to me.
Drew

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Nice. What hardness are you shooting for?

Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mglindo

Nice. What hardness are you shooting for?

Mike

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After tempering for 10min at 150c (350f) it should come out at around C62 but I've never sent a piece off to be tested so I'm not 100% on that, but it should be pretty close. I do use an off cut of the bar I'm working with, heat treat and temper it along side the blade I'm working on at the time, then once its sat for a couple of days put it in a vice and just give it a tap and if it breaks off nicely and has a good crystal structure I'm happy that its a good piece of steel and the heat treat has worked well.

Drew

with a proper "soak time" in the o1 you could be hitting 64 after tempering at 350f. not sure about that 10 min tempering time though, can you point me to the info where you got that? if 10 min does it then I temper way too long! haha

The place I get my steel from recommends the following for tempering

Tempering:
150C (300F) Rockwell C62
200C (400F) Rockwell C60 - 61
232C (450F) Rockwell C58 - 59
290C (550F) Rockwell C56 - 57

Hold at tempering temperature for about one hour per inch of thickness


so figure for 4mm thick temper time = 9min
5mm = 12min
6mm = 14min

so as I use mainly 5mm that has lost a little width while I'm working on them I'd go for 10min, if i'm wrong please tell me so i can adjust accordingly.

Those are some NASTY razors (in the best way possible) Super cool looking I love them.... but

With the tempering process, I understand your math, but the tempering process is to "relax and align" the steel after the stress of a heat treatment (which I also have a question about). 10 min wouldn't be nearly enough for this process to take place fully, heck, probably takes a solid 5 min for the steel to get up to that temp alone. I always temper for a minimum of an hour one time no matter what steel I'm using. But it usually ends up being a couple one hour sessions or one two hour session.

Next question, aiming for 62 HRC seems a bit hard IMO, not only would it be more difficult to hone, but I have found sometimes if I don't temper it enough and leave it too hard the edge chips out. How many shaves have you put into your razors that have that hardness? Typically if a blade is too hard, or too soft it just won't stay sharp long, ie chips out or rolls over.

Lastly, if I understood you correctly, you triple heat-treat them? What do you mean by this? Because taking it by word just doesn't make sense to me why one would do this?

But over all they look great, and most importantly, regardless how you got there, if they continually give you good shaves over and over... that's really all that matters!

I use the time recommendation for my soak time in the forge, after bringing it to critical and letting it come back down to black at least once to relieve stress in the steel from forging & grinding. Most of the time I will simply soak at critical for 8-10 minutes and quench for O-1 or 1095. I believe most of us will temper for one hour at a set temperature, I double temper at 350F personally. I could be wrong, but all of my customers have been very pleased. Keep in mind that mind that I mostly sell knives, but have a handful of razors in our SRP member hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3Drew101

The place I get my steel from recommends the following for tempering

Tempering:
150C (300F) Rockwell C62
200C (400F) Rockwell C60 - 61
232C (450F) Rockwell C58 - 59
290C (550F) Rockwell C56 - 57

Hold at tempering temperature for about one hour per inch of thickness


so figure for 4mm thick temper time = 9min
5mm = 12min
6mm = 14min

so as I use mainly 5mm that has lost a little width while I'm working on them I'd go for 10min, if i'm wrong please tell me so i can adjust accordingly.

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Hi guy’s I’m going to go through my heat treating process so you know exactly what I’m doing.

1. Normalizing I take the blade up to critical temp (until its no longer attracted to a magnet then let it cool back down to black. I do this three times just to ensure that it has the same structure all over.
2. Heat treating take the blade up to temp again until its no longer attracted to a magnet then let it soak for (depending on thickness) 4mm = 5min, 5mm = 6min, 6mm = 7min. this is working off the information from my steel supplier who recommend 30min per 25mm (1”) thick. Then quench in hot oil until the bubbles has almost stopped then back in the forge for another two rounds.
3. Tempering as soon as the last quench is done and the blade is still hot it goes into the oven at 150c for depending on thickness 4mm thick temper time = 9min 5mm = 12min 6mm = 14min

The reason why I heat treat three times is to ensure that the crystals have all become the same size, this is something my granddad taught me to do, he was an engineer and tool maker and during WWII he worked with Barnes Wallis on the casing for the bouncing bomb so I don’t know if its over engineering for a razor but it seems to work, doesn’t take that much longer in the grand scheme of thing so I’m going to keep on doing it.

I’ve added the info from my steel supplier, this is for 01 tool steel and I’m not sure if it varies for other steels.
If I am doing something wrong please point it out so I can correct my process.

Drew

Hardening Heat slowly and if possible pre heat at 300-500°C before raising to the hardening temperature of 780-820°C. Pre heating is especially desirable for complex sections. Soak thoroughly allowing 30 minutes per 25mm of ruling section before quenching. Light sections should be quenched in oil from the lower end of the hardening temperature range. Tempering is always necessary after hardening.
________________________________________
Tempering Temper between 100°C and 350°C. Soak well at the selected temperature and soak for at least one hour per 25mm of total thickness.

Temperature [°C] 100 150 200 250 300 350
Hardness [HRc] 64-63 63-62 62-61 60-59 58-57 56-55

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3Drew101

Evening all,

This is my fist crack at a hollow ground razor, it’s nearly 10/8” fixed blade with a natural horn blade guard fixed with pewter wedges and brass pins.
And it shaves as good as it looks!
Attachment 179923Attachment 179924Attachment 179925Attachment 179926Attachment 179927Attachment 179928


And these are three Did a little while ago

Attachment 179930Attachment 179931Attachment 179932
Attachment 179933Attachment 179934Attachment 179935
Attachment 179936Attachment 179937Attachment 179938

I'm still enjoying myself too much to call making these razors work, and I can't see that changing any time soon!

---

Beautiful works of art, I've read a few comments regarding your tempering times. If it holds a good edge and shaves well then your doing something right dude. Soak it up and keep doing what your doing and enjoy. The world is full of experts ha ha:banghead:

Nice smilers those.
Next one I make, I will attempt to do a smile grind for the first time.
Joe

Tempering for 10 mins seems a bit short.
As it is intended to relieve stresses, longer is better. I use at least 1 hour.
Also, 62 is a bit too hard for comfort. Most people go for 60-61 because that allows for a very fine edge that it not too brittle, and not too hard to hone. 64 would be silly. It would make honing truly onerous, and result in an edge that would chip out almost by looking at it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Tempering for 10 mins seems a bit short.
As it is intended to relieve stresses, longer is better. I use at least 1 hour.
Also, 62 is a bit too hard for comfort. Most people go for 60-61 because that allows for a very fine edge that it not too brittle, and not too hard to hone. 64 would be silly. It would make honing truly onerous, and result in an edge that would chip out almost by looking at it.

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Agreed,
A good temper is as much a function of time as it is temperature regardless of how small the section is. I start with an hour and have never had to go to two. If I struggled to hone I would temper for a further 30 mins to 1 hour. Some guys go straight for two hours in the oven.

Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Tempering for 10 mins seems a bit short.
As it is intended to relieve stresses, longer is better. I use at least 1 hour.
Also, 62 is a bit too hard for comfort. Most people go for 60-61 because that allows for a very fine edge that it not too brittle, and not too hard to hone. 64 would be silly. It would make honing truly onerous, and result in an edge that would chip out almost by looking at it.

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Bruno-I was talking about "as quenched" hardness up to 64 with a proper soak in o1, not suggesting to aim for 64 as an end result. and Bruno- the statement on tempering as a stress relief- i agree wholeheartedly. its not just a matter of reducing the hardness, its about equalizing internal stresses as well. I do think ease of sharpening is better for anyone interested in maintaining their own blades. it seems a lot of folks have become obsessed with highest degree of hardness rather than ease of maintenance. it doesn't take an ultra hardened blade to achieve keenness and edge holding. sometimes its more a matter of ingredients in a particular steel that affect the ability to achieve keenness. sometimes its the manner of heat treat that means the most. will the particular steel benefit from multiple quenches or not in order to refine the grain size? lots of factors, but as hipsley said, if it takes an edge and shaves successfully then the proof was in the pudding. optimal does not mean essential by any means. the shave and ease of maintenance are the test of any blade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silverloaf

Bruno-I was talking about "as quenched" hardness up to 64 with a proper soak in o1, not suggesting to aim for 64 as an end result. and Bruno- the statement on tempering as a stress relief- i agree wholeheartedly. its not just a matter of reducing the hardness, its about equalizing internal stresses as well. I do think ease of sharpening is better for anyone interested in maintaining their own blades. it seems a lot of folks have become obsessed with highest degree of hardness rather than ease of maintenance. it doesn't take an ultra hardened blade to achieve keenness and edge holding. sometimes its more a matter of ingredients in a particular steel that affect the ability to achieve keenness. sometimes its the manner of heat treat that means the most. will the particular steel benefit from multiple quenches or not in order to refine the grain size? lots of factors, but as hipsley said, if it takes an edge and shaves successfully then the proof was in the pudding. optimal does not mean essential by any means. the shave and ease of maintenance are the test of any blade.

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Precisely,

This is why I go only for a 1 hour temper to start. Its because I can't be sure how optimal the hardening has gone. The hone always informs me. This is purely a practical consideration over theory. If I get a very hard edge, one hour would not be enough and would relinquish more martensite. Chippy edges are another real problem if they are too hard, I can vouch for that.

Joe