Getting honing on the right path.

Hey guys,

I have 3 straight razors, one of which was professionally honed so I know what 'sharp' is. I am keen to learn how to do it and am a confident bloke and I've achieved some good shaves from razor no.2. I have 3 hones, a 4K naniwa samurai, a 8k superstone and a 10K superstone. I am finding that I can get a bevel (I can cut arm hair) and it feels good on the thumb. But when I give it a go on the 8k, by the end of the x strokes (10 to 12) I feel it is a little less keen that it was on the 4K. Why? Am I to believe that putting on the 10k would help...I doubt it. Have I overhoned it? (I also prior to the latest (Todays) honing started witha spine leading few strokes on the 4k and repeated the process. The result is 'good' but doesn't '
Fee' like the pro model. We are talking of two Dovo Prima Klang and one Bismarck 6/8 new razors. I know this whole matter is subjective, but any advice of tips would be great. Bobski

Wow !! that's a whole can of worms you've opened up there Sir.
You're going to get many different opinions

First off, I set all my bevels with a Naniwa 1k. It works for me :)
Then it's Naniwa 5k, 8k and 12k to finish.

The Naniwas are wide enough that I don't need to do X strokes unless the blade is 7/8" or bigger.
This is just my rather limited experience and observations.
It is so subjective......

How much pressure are you using ?
Have your stones been lapped properly ?

Lynn has some cool You tube vids that might help....they've certainly helped me understand the process !!
The second vid shows how to refresh rather than full on honing. This might be relevant to you as your razors are new.

1. Straight Razor Honing-Naniwa Super Stones - YouTube

2. Straight Razor Honing-Refreshing Straight Razors - YouTube

Have you asked your honer what he uses? I imagine their finisher would be finer than 10k.
I have a 10 and 12k naniwa, along with some Welsh slates.
I am new to refreshing but I have found that sometimes I test my razor and it is no good, so I try again the next day and it comes good.
Sorry I cant be more help than That as I am waiting for some coarser stones to play around with.

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Originally Posted by bobski

. I am finding that I can get a bevel (I can cut arm hair) and it feels good on the thumb. But when I give it a go on the 8k, by the end of the x strokes (10 to 12) I feel it is a little less keen that it was on the 4K. Why?

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It is not uncommon in the least for the "Feel of the Sharp tests" to disappear as you go higher on the Naniwa SS hones

Confused me to no end when I first got them :) had positive signs coming off the bevel set then it seemed that I lost everything after that, finally I just tried honing through and learned that it was part of the way Naniwas worked out for me..

My theory as I have never tried to prove it, is that at the lower grit the Naniwa leaves enough "Tooth" to feel sharp but they polish so well that that "Tooth" disappears..

Regardless they work and they work quite well in the end

Thstd s good point too Ed. I've found that after honing, I feel it could be better and I come back toit in a day or so, and by magic it is better?My honer reckons the 8k should be enough, but it never gets ;'keen' enough. I'll keep trying thanks lads.

Seems to be the nature of the stones but have you backed your pressure right off at 8k.
If not you could be smooshing the edge or at the other extreme not even contacting it.
Sometimes 2 or 3 strops on canvas will reveal the edge you think disappeared.

Thankyou fellas,
As mentioned, I honed the 5/8 prima klang to a point that It felt reasonable but not as good as the pro model. BUT, when I stropped it two days later, by magic it shaved lovely and grabbed my thumb AFTER I had shaved. I tend to believe what gssixgun said about the 'tooth' dissapearing with the naniwas, and the fact that a few days seem to 'cure' the metal..I guess there is a metalurgist out there who'd make fun of us. It's our hobby, we should be confused and by trial and error get it right. I honed the bismarck 6/8 today and I'll wait 2 days before trying it out. Cheers and thanks men.

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Originally Posted by bobski

Thankyou fellas,
As mentioned, I honed the 5/8 prima klang to a point that It felt reasonable but not as good as the pro model. BUT, when I stropped it two days later, by magic it shaved lovely and grabbed my thumb AFTER I had shaved. I tend to believe what gssixgun said about the 'tooth' dissapearing with the naniwas, and the fact that a few days seem to 'cure' the metal..I guess there is a metalurgist out there who'd make fun of us. It's our hobby, we should be confused and by trial and error get it right. I honed the bismarck 6/8 today and I'll wait 2 days before trying it out. Cheers and thanks men.

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Just curious. Did you strop the razor before the 2 day lapse i.e. straight after honing ? If you did, I'm suitably confused. :)

G'day Os, No I only stropped it at the time of the shave. It sat for the two days, whilst the rotation went on, but no stropping until the morning of the shave itself. I'm keen to get the physics of this right, I tend to trust progression method before any pyramid style just as my practical side won't let me use the thumb nail test. I feel it's like taking arsenic just to make sure it kills you. I have ordered a combo 1k/6k hone which I'm waiting to arrive. It should compliment my existing stones (Naniwa's 4k, 8k and 10k. I like to get things right so I'll read and learn as much as I can. As I mentioned it seems a tad weird that after the honing, the edge improves after a few days. Puzzles me. If you have a theory I'd like to hear it, given your reputation in this field. Cheers Bobski

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Originally Posted by bobski

G'day Os, No I only stropped it at the time of the shave. It sat for the two days, whilst the rotation went on, but no stropping until the morning of the shave itself. I'm keen to get the physics of this right, I tend to trust progression method before any pyramid style just as my practical side won't let me use the thumb nail test. I feel it's like taking arsenic just to make sure it kills you. I have ordered a combo 1k/6k hone which I'm waiting to arrive. It should compliment my existing stones (Naniwa's 4k, 8k and 10k. I like to get things right so I'll read and learn as much as I can. As I mentioned it seems a tad weird that after the honing, the edge improves after a few days. Puzzles me. If you have a theory I'd like to hear it, given your reputation in this field. Cheers Bobski

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G'day Bobski.
First up, gotta defend the TNT & pyramid honing. Even tho I don't use them either atm I've used them enough to know how & why they work. ;)

Just to clarify you stropped 2x & shave tested 2x but the second shave was good & the first useless. ?

I don't own the Nanis to say for sure but maybe 10 -12 strokes on the 8k is not enough ? Still doesn't answer why it comes good 2 days later. :shrug:

I think it's my fundamental non-understanding of the process from go to whoa. I use my logic, and that can be dangerous. I'll be better off when I am sure that the bevel is right. I am afraid to be honest after getting what is a grippy tpt to the loss of keeness when I put it on the 8K. Maybe I need to give it more of a go on the 8k. To me, after a fair bit of work on the 4k, it goes down hill, (Only the thumb feel). When I check how they feel with the thumb pad, immediately post honing, I feel it isn't keen. Then for no reason, when I shave with it after a strop it shaves well. I'm looking for a scientific reason for this?
Anyway, I'll have a bevel setting stone soon, and a good naniwa progressive regime that really is without doubt a good array of stones. My array will be 1k,4k,6k,8k,10k. While I have your attention, your thoughts on chromium Oxide (100% genuine from a pottery factory on a 3 x 3 balso block) I've seen crayon on a coarse strop back (15% crox). When looked at at say 20 magnification it seems less scratched. Tell me it doesn't matter, it cost me 6 bucks for enough for a thousand strops! So I won't be broken hearted if I'm wasting my time.

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Originally Posted by bobski

I think it's my fundamental non-understanding of the process from go to whoa. I use my logic, and that can be dangerous. I'll be better off when I am sure that the bevel is right. I am afraid to be honest after getting what is a grippy tpt to the loss of keeness when I put it on the 8K. Maybe I need to give it more of a go on the 8k. To me, after a fair bit of work on the 4k, it goes down hill, (Only the thumb feel). When I check how they feel with the thumb pad, immediately post honing, I feel it isn't keen. Then for no reason, when I shave with it after a strop it shaves well. I'm looking for a scientific reason for this?
Ahh right. I think the scientific answer is a smoother edge will feel different i.e. less scary unless there is lateral movement. It's hard to know what's happening for sure but often an apparent loss of sharpness at 8k etc is often indicative of a bevel problem but it could even be something like a botched stroke on the 8k which then is a bevel problem too. :)

Anyway, I'll have a bevel setting stone soon, and a good naniwa progressive regime that really is without doubt a good array of stones. My array will be 1k,4k,6k,8k,10k. While I have your attention, your thoughts on chromium Oxide (100% genuine from a pottery factory on a 3 x 3 balso block) I've seen crayon on a coarse strop back (15% crox). When looked at at say 20 magnification it seems less scratched. Tell me it doesn't matter, it cost me 6 bucks for enough for a thousand strops! So I won't be broken hearted if I'm wasting my time.

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I don't finish on pates these days. I used pottery CrO for a long time but often had my doubts about the random scratches I saw so stopped using it. The Kremer water colour pigment is quite uniform tho as are a few other brands.

Thanks Os, I do believe it is a bevel problem, having to do a lot of work to get the tpt pass on a 4k. I am waiting for the postie to deliver the naniwa 1k and re-assess the bevel, but looking at it first under 20x magnification and post say 20 strokes each way on the 1K, this razor a 6/8 Dovo arrived with no real ability to shave no matter how much you strop it. As mentioned, it is my technique that will need to improve, and with more work I'll get it right. Thanks for your input. There are so many opinions out there, many styles and theories. I think I made it hard for myself by my 1st razor being an extra hollow ground, so when I get it completely right I'm in the right place. In this 'hobby' one tends to collect all sorts of things.....whats next.....cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobski

Thanks Os, I do believe it is a bevel problem, having to do a lot of work to get the tpt pass on a 4k. I am waiting for the postie to deliver the naniwa 1k and re-assess the bevel, but looking at it first under 20x magnification and post say 20 strokes each way on the 1K, this razor a 6/8 Dovo arrived with no real ability to shave no matter how much you strop it. As mentioned, it is my technique that will need to improve, and with more work I'll get it right. Thanks for your input. There are so many opinions out there, many styles and theories. I think I made it hard for myself by my 1st razor being an extra hollow ground, so when I get it completely right I'm in the right place. In this 'hobby' one tends to collect all sorts of things.....whats next.....cheers

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2 difficult things to learn are setting a good bevel & shaving angle. An extra hollow makes the first one easier & the second one tricky if you have a coarse beard but its all doable. Hang in there & know your mistakes will teach you as well as your successes.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

G'day Bobski.
First up, gotta defend the TNT & pyramid honing. Even tho I don't use them either atm I've used them enough to know how & why they work. ;)

Just to clarify you stropped 2x & shave tested 2x but the second shave was good & the first useless. ?

I don't own the Nanis to say for sure but maybe 10 -12 strokes on the 8k is not enough ? Still doesn't answer why it comes good 2 days later. :shrug:

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Perhaps it just needed extra initial stropping off the hones?

One of my double siders was mis-marked. I ended up shaving off a 3k stone. Not the most comfortable shave I ever had, but it was a shave. Os, in a passing comment to me one day, said that those hones was mis-marked at the factory and had I noticed? Well now that you mentioned it, yes...;) I was wondering why my edges seemed to diminish after my "8k" honing :D.


Mick

A can of worms indeed. Now I've ordered a 1k-6k combo stone. I only wanted a 1k, but got a good deal on the combo so now, I've confused myself even more bearing in mind that Lynn's video (above) uses a 1,5,8,12 progression. So my progression when this new stone arrives will be 1k, 4k,6k,8k,10k. So what I do with this progression following the 1k-4k is a puzzle. Maybe it's better not to even use the 6k side, or just give it say a half dozen strokes on the way to the 8 then the 10. The more I know about honing the less I actually can use with confidence. Don't be afraid of telling me home truths, I sometimes need them. (My bride thinks I'm insane over the burgeoning collection of razors, hones etc). I make sure I hide the razors for fear of what she might do with one of them when I'm asleep.....lol

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Originally Posted by bobski

A can of worms indeed. Now I've ordered a 1k-6k combo stone. I only wanted a 1k, but got a good deal on the combo so now, I've confused myself even more bearing in mind that Lynn's video (above) uses a 1,5,8,12 progression. So my progression when this new stone arrives will be 1k, 4k,6k,8k,10k. So what I do with this progression following the 1k-4k is a puzzle. Maybe it's better not to even use the 6k side, or just give it say a half dozen strokes on the way to the 8 then the 10. The more I know about honing the less I actually can use with confidence. Don't be afraid of telling me home truths, I sometimes need them. (My bride thinks I'm insane over the burgeoning collection of razors, hones etc). I make sure I hide the razors for fear of what she might do with one of them when I'm asleep.....lol

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All will be revealed thru experimentation. btw Shapton GS come as a 1,2,3,4,6,8 if you like small jumps. I like using just 3 stones if I can get away with it. :)

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

All will be revealed thru experimentation. btw Shapton GS come as a 1,2,3,4,6,8 if you like small jumps. I like using just 3 stones if I can get away with it. :)

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I like just one if I can get away with it! The only finisher stone I own. Sadly I usually go to the 8k as well...Of course I'm just a hone my own bloke and not a hone every man and his dogs razor bloke like you ;).


Mick

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Originally Posted by MickR

I like just one if I can get away with it! The only finisher stone I own. Sadly I usually go to the 8k as well...Of course I'm just a hone my own bloke and not a hone every man and his dogs razor bloke like you ;).


Mick

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Book of Armaments, Chapter 2, verses 9–21 ~
"Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three." :)

Maybe ur right about every man and his dog honers. It's an irony that I got all these ideas on hones used and needed from this forum. More fool me.

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Originally Posted by bobski

Maybe ur right about every man and his dog honers. It's an irony that I got all these ideas on hones used and needed from this forum. More fool me.

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Think you may have the wrong end of the stick, oz hones razors professionally (for every man and his dog).

Sorry mate I misunderstood the post. I'm a learner,trying to learn what is both an art and an obsession. This skill gets you really in an area where you so much want to get it right, but find your limitations are many. I'll keep listening and learning, no offence intended. cheers Rob

Thanks for clearing that up Ed.

bobski, you won't hear a bad word from me about Oz. I having nothing but the utmost of respect for him, and owe much of my own knowledge to him and his words of wisdom. He also showed me what 'shave ready' really means! He won't lead you astray.


Mick

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Originally Posted by MickR

Thanks for clearing that up Ed.

bobski, you won't hear a bad word from me about Oz. I having nothing but the utmost of respect for him, and owe much of my own knowledge to him and his words of wisdom. He also showed me what 'shave ready' really means! He won't lead you astray.


Mick

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+1 - Oz did the same for me, and agree wholeheartedly with Mick's comments.
Adam

Totally agree Mick, my error champ. I'm suffering from RAD HAD and OCD. I've little hope of recovering!

Nothing wrong with using a lot of stones, just the time on each is reduced.