Chainmail

Chainmail is actually hard to make.
Im posting this because i read another thread that showed Normans attacking Saxons on the English coast.
Real rivited chainmail takes effort.

This is what it looks like...

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Attachment 168069

Making rivited chainmail is no easy task.
The Vikings wore it.
The Saxons wore it.
The Normans wore it.
The Angles wore it.
The Romans wore it.(a little different)
What could possibally go wrong.
I wear it so I dont get stabbed when I go to Walmart.
I made it myself.

Looks more time consuming than hard? :-}

Yep. It does take alot of time.

I helped make riveted 4-in-1 mail during my Society for Creative Anachronism days. We did it in assembly line fashion, breaking the process down into its individual steps. That was surprisingly efficient, but it was still extremely time consuming. Here's how the end product appeared:

Attachment 168074

Be sure to stay away from deep water.

The majority of old armor I ever studied were made of flattend links similar to Hai's This provided a much greater surface area. Good against slashing attacks, even the evil red imp of the local castle would not be of much use. However a good Spear would still punch through, as would a double arrow (now if I only had photos to add to make this post funny)

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Originally Posted by Magpie

The majority of old armor I ever studied were made of flattend links similar to Hai's This provided a much greater surface area. Good against slashing attacks, even the evil red imp of the local castle would not be of much use. However a good Spear would still punch through, as would a double arrow (now if I only had photos to add to make this post funny)

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IIRC the warriors wore 2 or 3 inches of felt under the chain mail. This supposedly protected them from the points that got through the mail.

Is this correct?

DAve

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Originally Posted by rolodave

IIRC the warriors wore 2 or 3 inches of felt under the chain mail. This supposedly protected them from the points that got through the mail.

Is this correct?

DAve

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I'd guess it would protect against blunt force trauma. The mail would stop any cutting or piercing, but being flexible, you would still be subject to a crushing blow in some cases.

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Originally Posted by rolodave

IIRC the warriors wore 2 or 3 inches of felt under the chain mail. This supposedly protected them from the points that got through the mail.

Is this correct?

DAve

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I don't know about 2 or 3 inches (that's a lot of bulk and insulation), but quilted "doublets" or "arming coats" worn under mail offered some protection against blunt force injuries.

I believe any dense, quilted fabric or leather worn under the mail disperses the force of the impact. My son and I tested it on me lol. He said it felt like hitting a matress. I can tell you, some padding is a must. And this stuff will pull your hair out. Probabably why the Norman knights shaved their heads lol. And it is heavy. I coiled and cut each link. I made and used wedge rivits and peened each link. I used a 2 lb pound hammer to flatten each link after anealing the iron with a blowtorch. I had a little system going for sure. A 3 inch square segment takes 49 rings. A completed 3 square inch segment takes 2 hours. I've timed it. Several different ways. Some very interesting armor was made by the Japanese if anyone cares to read about it. They made solid, flexible steel plates overlapped and laced together. I highly recommend looking that up.

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Originally Posted by HaiKarate

And this stuff will pull your hair out. Probabably why the Norman knights shaved their heads lol.

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kind of like those old twisto-flex watch bands? (any one remember those?) Thanks for the useful information, absolutely fascinating. always wandered how it was made.

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Originally Posted by rolodave

IIRC the warriors wore 2 or 3 inches of felt under the chain mail. This supposedly protected them from the points that got through the mail.

Is this correct?

DAve

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There is no single answer to this as armour and its use evolved in many different ways in different parts of the world and at different times and in response to different threats. The padding under mail could indeed give some protection from points, but as has been pointed out, it also gave some protection from the force of impact. And don't forget we're not just talking swords/knives here, but spears, lances, bolts, and arrows as well. Not to mention the many other weapons that evolved and good old fashioned kicks, punches, and general whallops of battle.

To give an idea of the force that could be involved with, say, an English (well, Welsh, really, but I won't get into that again...) longbow, there is an account from one of the battles of the Hundred Years war in which an arrow with a bodkin point passed through the knight's leg, severing his femoral artery and killing him, before passing straight through his mount, killing it too. Against stabbing/slashing attacks, mail can be extremely effective. But against a heavier weapon or a longbow, I wouldn't take a chance. They simply transmit too much energy to their target. Just read any account of the battles of Crécy or Poitiers to see how mail vs longbow ended up.

Many modern reproduction longbows are 50-70lb draw. Those recovered from the Mary Rose are estimated to have had draw weights from 100-185(!)lb. The force imparted by an arrow tipped with a properly designed bodkin head would made short work of mail and at close range punch right through contemporary plate armour (assuming it was not angled to deflect).

Sorry... don't get an historian on a roll. He's sure to get carried away and drag himself well off topic.

Long story short - yes, that padding would offer some protection from points that got through, assuming the rest of the weapon didn't follow. :) And it would also offer protection from the force of the impact.

Nice job on that mail - I know a couple of guys who have made some and so am well aware of the dedication that a piece that size represents!

But seriously: you feel a need to wear chain mail to go shopping? Cripes.

LOL "Cripes" been a long time since I heard that last.
:)

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

*SNIP*

Many modern reproduction longbows are 50-70lb draw. Those recovered from the Mary Rose are estimated to have had draw weights from 100-185(!)lb. The force imparted by an arrow tipped with a properly designed bodkin head would made short work of mail and at close range punch right through contemporary plate armour (assuming it was not angled to deflect).

*SNIP*

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I literally cannot imagine a bow with that kind of draw! I have experience with moderately "heavy" simple and compound bows, and those things will wear you out!

Back during the Dark Ages...no, not those Dark Ages...the late '60s...no, not THOSE '60s! I mean the late 1960s; the ones when I was attending junior high school! Anyway, one of my buddies decided to build a wooden crossbow as his woodworking shop final project. To make a long story short, he miscalculated the resulting draw, and it took two of us to just barely manage to cock the beast. We took it out to the school ball fields where he loaded up a bolt, aimed about 30°-40° above the horizon, and let her rip. That bolt cleared the full length of the football field, including the running track surrounding it, the adjacent two baseball diamonds and some empty space beyond, crossed the street and freaking BURIED itself in the Oklahoma hardpan in a (luckily) vacant lot approximately 300 yards away! We dug that bolt out of the ground, and began the walk back to the school with a healthy and somber respect for the weapon.

Its not done yet. here it is going down my arm...

Attachment 168326

Like I said it takes 2 hours to do 3 sq inches.

I order Whiting & Davis metalmesh when I need to do combat in slaughterhouses.

http://www.uline.com/images/product/...S_18009L_L.jpg

That wouldnt stand up to a swipe. Thats a knife protector.

Um...thats thin.

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Originally Posted by HaiKarate

Um...thats thin.

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Battle was limited to unintentional slips and stabs with 6" boning knives. True, we were not trying to slay people.

Hai, that's some excellent work there.

Cangooner is spot on with the English Longbows. Examinations of skeletal remains of the period even showed shoulder deformities which were attributed to the tremendous draw weights.
While chainmail would not stand up to such a weapon (for that matter neither will a level 2 bullet proof vest) it is still useful for a slashing or stabbing attack from a thug with a pocket knife.
I used to wear a chain vest sewn inside my leathers for that very reason, back when I spent too much time in the company of not so nice people.
I would love to get one made of stainless one of these days. :mace:

Interesting. In my area there seems to be another use... Belly Dancing outfits. Seems to be a market at craft sales and fairs for handmade chainmail ornamentation for dancers , etc.

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Originally Posted by Johnus

Interesting. In my area there seems to be another use... Belly Dancing outfits. Seems to be a market at craft sales and fairs for handmade chainmail ornamentation for dancers , etc.

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Wouldn't this create chafing?

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Originally Posted by rolodave

IIRC the warriors wore 2 or 3 inches of felt under the chain mail. This supposedly protected them from the points that got through the mail.

Is this correct?

DAve

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I believe the Mongols wore silk under their leather armor. Silk is supposed be very hard to penetrate.

And iirc the English officers wore silk leggings during engagements to somewhat protect against shrapnel and that if they were struck, it was easier for the surgeons.

Chaffing ??? Seen it made into collar, belt and halter type things. Quite expensive.
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Originally Posted by Johnus

Chaffing ??? Seen it made into collar, belt and halter type things. Quite expensive.
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Look closer I used only one F. ;)

Messed around with a certifiably crazy SCA oriented chick many years back. It was fun while it lasted.

She was modeling her new chain mail panties that she'd just spent a bunch of $$ on. Why chain mail panties? I never figured that one out. I enjoyed the modeling part though. She figured out pretty quick that stuff would pull hair.:rofl2:

She didn't think my remarks about rust stains on her back side were funny either......

Nice work on building that stuff. I watched a buddy of mine building a long shirt. Took him a while and a LOT of work.

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Originally Posted by HaiKarate

Chainmail is actually hard to make.
Im posting this because i read another thread that showed Normans attacking Saxons on the English coast.
Real rivited chainmail takes effort.[snip]
I wear it so I dont get stabbed when I go to Walmart.
I made it myself.

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Are you pillaging the local Walmart?

I have to see if I can grab a pic !! my buddy made his girlfriend a dress out of it .. he used the smaller rings though ...I know it took him a long time to finish it !!

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Originally Posted by MisterMoo

I order Whiting & Davis metalmesh when I need to do combat in slaughterhouses.

http://www.uline.com/images/product/...S_18009L_L.jpg

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Why on earth would you put a glove on the hand that holds the tool you wish to protect yourself against lol??

Because it's a right-handed glove, duh! :)

Yeah, our butcher walks around with a chain glove on his non-cutting hand.

I like the chain mail. I dunno about the undergarments for force dispersion, make sense I guess. I'd be more interested in undergarments for the body hair aspect. After 10 minutes of battle with the mail ripping out my chest hair I think I'd welcome a sword through the guts. :)

James.

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Why on earth would you put a glove on the hand that holds the tool you wish to protect yourself against lol??

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More than your own tool you worry about your neighbors.