Rifle Help

Any ideas why my .303 British Enfield bolt action is not holding a pattern?

Here is the info:
Last year tried sighting it in and it failed miserably. I was sighting in at 50 yards on a shooting bench on a sled. Adjusting the crosshairs on my Nikon scope did not correlate to getting closer to the bullseye. Once I kept the clip in the rifle, it got better, but still no really recognizable pattern.
Got frustrated, thought, "maybe it is the operator." Grabbed my 30-06 and was putting bullet holes touching each other...

So, in order to figure it out, had my Brother-in-law switch the scopes on my two rifles (he has the tools to do it properly-I do not).

This time at the range, same system: 50 yards, little wind, bench and sled. 30-06 is hitting within 4 MOA right where is should.
.303 responded to scope adjustments, but no discernable pattern within 6 inches of the bullseye (I believe that makes it 12 MOA).
The barrel is free floating.
The only idea I have yet to try is switching ammo.
Any other ideas?

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Originally Posted by coachschaller

Any ideas why my .303 British Enfield bolt action is not holding a pattern?

Here is the info:
Last year tried sighting it in and it failed miserably. I was sighting in at 50 yards on a shooting bench on a sled. Adjusting the crosshairs on my Nikon scope did not correlate to getting closer to the bullseye. Once I kept the clip in the rifle, it got better, but still no really recognizable pattern.
Got frustrated, thought, "maybe it is the operator." Grabbed my 30-06 and was putting bullet holes touching each other...

So, in order to figure it out, had my Brother-in-law switch the scopes on my two rifles (he has the tools to do it properly-I do not).

This time at the range, same system: 50 yards, little wind, bench and sled. 30-06 is hitting within 4 MOA right where is should.
.303 responded to scope adjustments, but no discernable pattern within 6 inches of the bullseye (I believe that makes it 12 MOA).
The barrel is free floating.
The only idea I have yet to try is switching ammo.
Any other ideas?

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Has it been like that since the first time you fired it? Barrel might be shot out. Is this mil surplus? What does the muzzle look like? Do you like what you see when you look down the bore? Is there any fouling or erosion? Ammo can effect accuracy but not as much as you are seeing. You may have to relegate that piece to a non shooting display. Your local gunsmith could tell you a lot more than what I can guess from long distance.

It has been able to get sighted in before. Sometimes it took several rounds, but I have shot a few deer with it. I looked down the barrel and still saw some rifling, but I wasn't looking for flaws at that point. Not sure about the provenance of the rifle. It was a gift from an uncle a couple decades back and I know he had it for a few decades before that. It might become a display piece, but I want to make sure before relegating it to display/home defense. The Uncle is still alive but is getting worse with old age crankiness.

I am open to hearing about what I should be looking for in the muzzle/barrel. It is another learning experience!

I would clean the barrel with like Butches Bore shine and inspect the rifling and also look at the crown for possible damage

Just read up on copper fouling and cleaning it out. I do not think that thorough of a cleaning has ever been done on the rifle...

May sound stupid but. Any cracks in stock? Any loose screws. Is scope tight? Is there a dollar bill space between barrel and stock? If not stock may be too tight on barrel and as barrel heats up it changes point of aim. Remove the bolt and place on sandbags and sight in target thru barrel. Now look thru scope, are they the same? Finally are your crosshairs broken. I had that happen on a shotgun. It was dead on. Then every shot was different. Under close inspection crosshairs broke in two places.

Fully disassemble, clean and properly reassemble the rifle. I don't know how many rifles I have fixed by doing that. Old and inaccurate rifles are almost always dirty, but often times I will find loose or missing hardware as well. Then there are the extremes where a guy in the past thought he could make it "better" and he buggered up the inside of the stock so that the action could never bed properly. Get a torque wrench and look up the specs for the mounting hardware. Also, make sure you reassemble it so that action to wood fit is correct. It could be a number of issues adding up.

The last time you fired it, did you use the same ammo?
Was the rifle cleaned properly immediately after the last firing? And how did it shoot then.

Was the rifle free floated or is it factory free floated?

Assuming the barrel is good, stock and scope tight, it is probably the free floating. Accurized 303’s and factory sniper models generally, are/were not free floated

Additionally, depending on when the rifle was made, during the war clear properly dried wood was in short supply, inferior wood used to get rifles out the door.


Look at the barrel, stock for shrinkage & tightness, switch ammo and check free floating.

4 MOA at 50yards is not great for a rifle. I have handguns that will hold an inch at 50, handheld, all day long.


“Just read up on copper fouling and cleaning it out. I do not think that thorough of a cleaning has ever been done on the rifle” ...

That’s too bad, surplus ammo is/was corrosive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coachschaller

It has been able to get sighted in before. Sometimes it took several rounds, but I have shot a few deer with it. I looked down the barrel and still saw some rifling, but I wasn't looking for flaws at that point. Not sure about the provenance of the rifle. It was a gift from an uncle a couple decades back and I know he had it for a few decades before that. It might become a display piece, but I want to make sure before relegating it to display/home defense. The Uncle is still alive but is getting worse with old age crankiness.

I am open to hearing about what I should be looking for in the muzzle/barrel. It is another learning experience!

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At the muzzle, look for dings, cracks, chips, corrosion, etc. It could well be that you need to have the barrel crowned and prices for that are all over the chart, could be pretty reasonable, though, and less cost than the rifle is worth. The damage or wear would likely be visually noticeable to give you the accuracy issues that you have. I am voting for bore erosion or fouling. But the bedding of the action is somewhat critical, too and that could be the issue. You switched scopes so that's not the problem but that doesn't mean that maybe your scope mounting isn't at fault somehow.Try shooting through the iron sights and see what you get.

Give that bore a super good cleaning and punch a few more holes in the paper and see what you get. If it still won't shoot worth a darn, take it to a gunsmith and let him look it over. Cost should be minimal to just look it over and mike the barrel. Be aware that you will probably have to fill out BATF form number whatever-I-forgot to get your rifle back so if you have felonies, etc maybe skip the gunsmith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bouschie

May sound stupid but. Any cracks in stock? Any loose screws. Is scope tight? Is there a dollar bill space between barrel and stock? If not stock may be too tight on barrel and as barrel heats up it changes point of aim. Remove the bolt and place on sandbags and sight in target thru barrel. Now look thru scope, are they the same? Finally are your crosshairs broken. I had that happen on a shotgun. It was dead on. Then every shot was different. Under close inspection crosshairs broke in two places.

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All feedback is helpful!!!
A new stock was put on by a gunsmith 20 some years ago - the original was too short for me ;)
Checked the scope and no obvious looseness or overtightness. Plus, just switched it from another rifle that is shooting fine.
I did and can put the dollar bill between the stock and barrel.
I did remove the bolt and sighted through the barrel - it worked better than the bore sighter!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DVW

Fully disassemble, clean and properly reassemble the rifle. I don't know how many rifles I have fixed by doing that. Old and inaccurate rifles are almost always dirty, but often times I will find loose or missing hardware as well. Then there are the extremes where a guy in the past thought he could make it "better" and he buggered up the inside of the stock so that the action could never bed properly. Get a torque wrench and look up the specs for the mounting hardware. Also, make sure you reassemble it so that action to wood fit is correct. It could be a number of issues adding up.

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Might do that. I dissembled it once before, but am not an expert.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

The last time you fired it, did you use the same ammo?
Was the rifle cleaned properly immediately after the last firing? And how did it shoot then.

Was the rifle free floated or is it factory free floated?

Assuming the barrel is good, stock and scope tight, it is probably the free floating. Accurized 303’s and factory models generally, are/were not free floated

Additionally, depending on when the rifle was made, during the war clear properly dried wood was in short supply, inferior wood used to get rifles out the door.


Look at the barrel, stock for shrinkage & tightness, switch ammo and check free floating.

4 MOA at 50yards is not great for a rifle. I have handguns that will hold an inch at 50, handheld, all day long.


“Just read up on copper fouling and cleaning it out. I do not think that thorough of a cleaning has ever been done on the rifle” ...

That’s too bad, surplus ammo is/was corrosive.

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Yes I used the same ammo as last time (which did NOT work). I will first try to shoot some older ammo that worked before.
I use the bore snake right after shooting it every time (at the end of the day)- likely not a thorough enough cleaning.
I have no idea if the barrel was free floated at the factory or after, but I had a gun smith re-do all wooden parts 20 some years ago

On that 30-06 with 4 MOA, it is likely the ammo. It was shooting under 1 MOA last year with different ammo.

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Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

At the muzzle, look for dings, cracks, chips, corrosion, etc. It could well be that you need to have the barrel crowned and prices for that are all over the chart, could be pretty reasonable, though, and less cost than the rifle is worth. The damage or wear would likely be visually noticeable to give you the accuracy issues that you have. I am voting for bore erosion or fouling. But the bedding of the action is somewhat critical, too and that could be the issue. You switched scopes so that's not the problem but that doesn't mean that maybe your scope mounting isn't at fault somehow.Try shooting through the iron sights and see what you get.

Give that bore a super good cleaning and punch a few more holes in the paper and see what you get. If it still won't shoot worth a darn, take it to a gunsmith and let him look it over. Cost should be minimal to just look it over and mike the barrel. Be aware that you will probably have to fill out BATF form number whatever-I-forgot to get your rifle back so if you have felonies, etc maybe skip the gunsmith.

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NO more iron sights :(:( The peep had to be taken off to mount the scope (done professionally)
But if cleaning it doesn't work, perhaps taking it back to the gun smith is in order. They are just really behind and I have no felonies yet to be worried about. I still have other shooting options though

Thanks fellas,
I appreciate the suggestions. I don't know a ton of this stuff yet. Just what the Old man, and uncle have taught me. And that is just enough to hit a deer at 100 yards or so. I have never been a great shot, but I have not had trouble hitting my targets.

Cost me $150 (for background check and “fees”) and a year, to get back a pistol I had loan my dad 40 years ago. It was still registered to me. A nice 5 screw S/W 6” revolver.

My dad passed 2 years ago, my slime ball sister stole the gun from his house.

She turned it in to the police after, I threatened to file a police report and name her as the suspect, which I did. Of course, they did nothing but take a report.

Does not matter that the gun was stolen, still had to pay and wait and wait, they lost the paper work, but cashed the check. California…

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Cost me $150 (for background check and “fees”) and a year, to get back a pistol I had loan my dad 40 years ago. It was still registered to me. A nice 5 screw S/W 6” revolver.

My dad passed 2 years ago, my slime ball sister stole the gun from his house.

She turned it in to the police after, I threatened to file a police report and name her as the suspect, which I did. Of course, they did nothing but take a report.

Does not matter that the gun was stolen, still had to pay and wait and wait, they lost the paper work, but cashed the check. California…

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Bummer. Glad I don't live on the Left Coast. That's a terrible way to treat a law abiding citizen who is just trying to do the right thing. Too bad your sister didn't just do the right thing and return it to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Cost me $150 (for background check and “fees”) and a year, to get back a pistol I had loan my dad 40 years ago. It was still registered to me. A nice 5 screw S/W 6” revolver.

My dad passed 2 years ago, my slime ball sister stole the gun from his house.

She turned it in to the police after, I threatened to file a police report and name her as the suspect, which I did. Of course, they did nothing but take a report.

Does not matter that the gun was stolen, still had to pay and wait and wait, they lost the paper work, but cashed the check. California…

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Sorry about that.... Thankfully I don't live in California.
My sister also shoots. Hasn't started hunting yet. However, when my old man passes, we will have to divy up the firearms between us. We get along well so it will not be a big deal.

Just out of curiosity - which model Lee Enfield is it? I have a couple of .303s (they are quite common up here what with the empire and all that. :) ). One is a P14 (not a Lee Enfield, more of a Mauser type design) that is now well over a century old and is the most accurate rifle I own. The other is a sporterized Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk.1 (i.e. the WWII one) that is definitely more accurate than its shooter when I take it to the range.

Aside from curiosity, depending on what model it is, yours could also be over 100 years old. The SMLE was introduced in something like 1907, so surviving who knows how many owners and a couple of world wars maybe it's just a bunch of accumulated minor problems that together make it go a bit haywire?

That having been said, they are *really* nice rifles to shoot, and I hope you get your dialed in soon and without too much more hassle.

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

Just out of curiosity - which model Lee Enfield is it? I have a couple of .303s (they are quite common up here what with the empire and all that. :) ). One is a P14 (not a Lee Enfield, more of a Mauser type design) that is now well over a century old and is the most accurate rifle I own. The other is a sporterized Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk.1 (i.e. the WWII one) that is definitely more accurate than its shooter when I take it to the range.

Aside from curiosity, depending on what model it is, yours could also be over 100 years old. The SMLE was introduced in something like 1907, so surviving who knows how many owners and a couple of world wars maybe it's just a bunch of accumulated minor problems that together make it go a bit haywire?

That having been said, they are *really* nice rifles to shoot, and I hope you get your dialed in soon and without too much more hassle.

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Had to look it up.
NO. 4 MK I 1943

Lee Enfield rifles were used for sniping in both 303 and lastly in 308 cal. . Also many gents had custom heavy barrelled Lee Enfield target rifles in 308 made for long distance DCRA completions from 600 to 1000 yds.. The shorter ranges they covered with a Mauser action rifle. The point being that they can be made very accurate so the potential is there.

Besides all the good recommendation that have been made, I would check to make sure the action is properly bedded into the stock so as not to move on firing. You need a rock solid butt stock to action fit with no slop and the action rock solid in the fore end wood. As has been mentioned, make sure the barrel is really free floating with no contact with the fore end wood.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Lee Enfield rifles were used for sniping in both 303 and lastly in 308 cal. . Also many gents had custom heavy barrelled Lee Enfield target rifles in 308 made for long distance DCRA completions from 600 to 1000 yds.. The shorter ranges they covered with a Mauser action rifle. The point being that they can be made very accurate so the potential is there.

Besides all the good recommendation that have been made, I would check to make sure the action is properly bedded into the stock so as not to move on firing. You need a rock solid butt stock to action fit with no slop and the action rock solid in the fore end wood. As has been mentioned, make sure the barrel is really free floating with no contact with the fore end wood.

Bob

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Just checked all of it and it is rock solid and free floating !

Well, did some major cleaning of the barrel. After scrubbing and cleaning and resting and scrubbing some more, I think the barrel might be going. I could make out some copper on the rifling at the muzzle end. The rifling still looks deep, but I can see some pitting and maybe even a scratch or so running a portion of the barrel. I will try it out again and then I will switch the ammo. Outside of better cleaning and maybe a trip to the gunsmith, it will not be a huge loss to hang it on the wall, if it comes to that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Cost me $150 (for background check and “fees”) and a year, to get back a pistol I had loan my dad 40 years ago. It was still registered to me. A nice 5 screw S/W 6” revolver.

My dad passed 2 years ago, my slime ball sister stole the gun from his house.

She turned it in to the police after, I threatened to file a police report and name her as the suspect, which I did. Of course, they did nothing but take a report.

Does not matter that the gun was stolen, still had to pay and wait and wait, they lost the paper work, but cashed the check. California…

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It's not just California. 25-30 years ago I got pulled over for traffic stuff. I had a.truck with a 429 out of an old Mercury station wagon that would pass anything but a gas station. Useless details, useless details... anyway I was young and dumb and got arrested for wreckless driving. I had a pistol legally stored that was confiscated. It took me months, maybe over a year to get it back and it cost me a fortune. Bad thing was it belonged to my Dad. There was no legal or logical reason for them to confiscate it in the first place but I guess you really can't fight city hall

confiscation and seizure laws can be head scratching. They are not nice here in Michigan either. There is a push to legislate it better.

After over an hour of scrubbing my rifle here are the results 50 yards on a bench wind 10-15 mph:

Attachment 324324

Top Row is my .303 Enfield:

Top left is with some old PPU shells 180 gr bullet
Top Middle is with better ammo - I would be happy with that grouping
Top right is from the ammo I was using last year and earlier when I made my initial post. I bought it about 1 year ago at a gun shop.

Bottom Row is with my 30-06 with different loads. I will be using the loads on the left. My first shot is exactly where I want it. :)


So maybe my .303 needed some cleaning, but it looks like it was mostly the ammo.

Can I make the recommendation to do 5 round groups instead of 3. Statistically there is a huge difference in the accuracy of the sample.

That said it looks like ammo to me. Most cheap ammo, surplus or not, are 2 moa plus loads. Sure you can get it down by cherry picking groups or a lucky spread, but they'll still average about 2 moa.

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Originally Posted by GrimClippers11

Can I make the recommendation to do 5 round groups instead of 3. Statistically there is a huge difference in the accuracy of the sample.

That said it looks like ammo to me. Most cheap ammo, surplus or not, are 2 moa plus loads. Sure you can get it down by cherry picking groups or a lucky spread, but they'll still average about 2 moa.

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One reloader I work with says he always does 4 shot groups when testing loads. Unfortunately, I am low on ammo and it is hard to find right now. My last trip yielded the exact same cartridge for sale that I was having problems with (top right). I did get one box of 30-06, so I should be able to shoot 4 or 5 rounds next time!

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Originally Posted by coachschaller

One reloader I work with says he always does 4 shot groups when testing loads. Unfortunately, I am low on ammo and it is hard to find right now. My last trip yielded the exact same cartridge for sale that I was having problems with (top right). I did get one box of 30-06, so I should be able to shoot 4 or 5 rounds next time!

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I completely understand that. The only store in my area with anything in stock is selling at nearly double what his already high prices were in January. He complains of the the window shoppers coming in looking for ammo and not buying, but he's selling .308 federal gold medal match for over $3.25 a round. Heck his 9mm hydra-shok is $2.75 a round.

I would handload for the rifle, 5 shot groups as suggested. don't forget a small amount of free bore when loading, ie don't have the over all loaded round length butting up to the rifling lands. Is it a no 3 or 4 rifle? My old no 3 would hold about and inch at 100 m off the bench with open sights. I found the 185 grain projectiles best for my old girl. I worked up in 1/2 grain increments from the minimum. Quick check of the thread, I see No 4 rifle, that has a front locking bolt, so should group well. Is it a two groove rifle?

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Originally Posted by heelerau

I, ie don't have the over all loaded round length butting up to the rifling lands.

Is it a two groove rifle?

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I have not made a mold out of the action to know where the lands are.

Not sure if it is a two groove... how do I check?