Rapid prototype potential for custom razors

Working in an industry where rapid prototyping is the norm, I've been thinking about one shot manufacturing methods for blades.
Using subtractive modelling techniques from cad, it seems feasible (in my head at least) to make a razor from an hardened/tempered blank. This could be achieved using cnc electro discharge machining. These things can come of the process with hair splitting tolerances and mirror finish if required. All that would be required is to hone and scale.
I know this would take the fun out of things but have others thought about this. Cost may be prohibitive but if I can get a favour done I will attempt to get this done sometime but may have to get a physical model digitised. Am I missing something here? 3D printing is a rapid growing technology and the day will come sooner that low cost custom one offs will be the norm.
Any thoughts?

Joe

I have often wodered why we dont see more automated processes. I could see someone with a benchtop cnc turning out customized scales doing fairly well for themselves. I have seen two threads about people making a brush handle with an additive process, but no subtractive processes for any kind of project.

There are several reasons why this is not anywhere near feasible.
One offs on a cnc are very expensive. The only way you'll get it done is as a favor from someone who operates one. Otherwise it's going to be prohibitively expensive. And that is not counting the time to do the CAD design. you said it yourself: cost will be prohibitive. 3D printing... until they find a way to print tool steel, it's irrelevant. But even if somehow there was a rapid prototypeing tool for tool steel, that itself would be a very expensive resource. the person buying one would not supply you with razors out of th ekindness of his heart. It would be an invenstment which has to deliver a return, and you'd still pay market value for a razor.

Of course, we never know what the future might bring, but for one off custom made stuff, I don't foresee new machines bringing cheap razors any time soon.

I was wondering about that same thing the other day.
I just need to win the lottery and buy a cnc with edm. Although, I do have a cnc plasma knife with rotatory axis on order. Hmmm, I might have to give it a try once it comes in.

I'll be digitizing a couple of razor scales in the next week or so. I can go ahead and digitize a couple of blades for you.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

There are several reasons why this is not anywhere near feasible.
One offs on a cnc are very expensive. The only way you'll get it done is as a favor from someone who operates one. Otherwise it's going to be prohibitively expensive. And that is not counting the time to do the CAD design. you said it yourself: cost will be prohibitive. 3D printing... until they find a way to print tool steel, it's irrelevant. But even if somehow there was a rapid prototypeing tool for tool steel, that itself would be a very expensive resource. the person buying one would not supply you with razors out of th ekindness of his heart. It would be an invenstment which has to deliver a return, and you'd still pay market value for a razor.



Of course, we never know what the future might bring, but for one off custom made stuff, I don't foresee new machines bringing cheap razors any time soon.

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The die sinking technology exists now. Cost dose make it economically detrimental, but it's still feasible. We may all be shocked at how quickly this could change. This technology and the developments will have a massive impact on traditional manufacturing methods I feel, especially in the custom niches.

The only flaw in your plan if you accomplish this feat is the mentality. It's not just the fact that you have to get the same properties as the old steel into your new object. It's also a matter of being collectable. I would guess a majority of straight users also enjoy the fact that they are shaving with a tool that has stood the test of time for generations. New razors are cool but lets have a show of hands for how many use a new blade :<0) Another thing,,when you say customs you should understand the meaning there. Each one is different. That's a lot of digits and pixels. Good luck though on a proto type.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

The only flaw in your plan if you accomplish this feat is the mentality. It's not just the fact that you have to get the same properties as the old steel into your new object. It's also a matter of being collectable. I would guess a majority of straight users also enjoy the fact that they are shaving with a tool that has stood the test of time for generations. New razors are cool but lets have a show of hands for how many use a new blade :<0) Another thing,,when you say customs you should understand the meaning there. Each one is different. That's a lot of digits and pixels. Good luck though on a proto type.

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True. So true.
I agree entirely. I have made my own razors by hand. Has a sort of traditional (Japanese) master smith reverence to it.
In terms of the average Joe designing his own personalised razor including makers mark. I liken this to the advent of digital photography.
Does take the skill and dare I say charm out of the process. Progress if it happens can not be stopped??
Someone will do it at some point in time. I think that there is room for both approaches.
Can you tell the difference between a "real" and a synthetic diamond?

Nope I am no diamond expert. Can't tell the difference between GMO food and regular either except for the blan taste and can't forget the fact that it is covered in pesticides. :<0)
But yeah there maybe room for both, I am just thinking you will have to create your own market. This is totally doable if not now , in the future. Just twice as much work as your original plan which was coming up with the product.

A 3d scanner would make custom designs from old razors easy enough.

Ok Guys. Not weighing in on fesibility, as I reckon you have covered it.
just point out that just because you can do something does not mean you should do it.
the main thing is to ensure it is not called hand made. :)
I guess there is still a skill indoing it the technological way., but no sweat of brow. Kind of like arguments in smelting ones own steel vs forging recycled steel vs forging production steel vs stock removal vs home heat treat vs commercial heat treat, etc.
be interested to see results and compare to a razor made traditionally.

Yes you can. You X-ray them , Real Diamonds dont show up ,you only see the prongs. Cubix zirconia because its flimflammed in a lab shows up as an image in the shape it was cut. Talk about a pissed off women when she finds out. 20 years as an Radiology Technologist finally was useful for my hobby.

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Originally Posted by Adam G.

Ok Guys. Not weighing in on fesibility, as I reckon you have covered it.
just point out that just because you can do something does not mean you should do it.
the main thing is to ensure it is not called hand made. :)
I guess there is still a skill indoing it the technological way., but no sweat of brow. Kind of like arguments in smelting ones own steel vs forging recycled steel vs forging production steel vs stock removal vs home heat treat vs commercial heat treat, etc.
be interested to see results and compare to a razor made traditionally.

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Just because we can doesnt mean we should. GMO foods. Growing pieces and parts in test tubes. Nuclear bombs...... Need we say more. Once Pandora is let out you cant put her back in. Just because you can, we as a community would have to take resposibility for any direction this could spiral down to. Ouch I am going to say this "sometimes the old ways are better" .No one would die from texting and driving if the phone still had a cord coming out of the wall. Just saying

Great idea but there's something about the skill of a craftsman work that a machine could never capture.

I guess if you want to do full scale production, you could always follow mass production methods of wood chisels.
How its made chisel - YouTube

And yet most of the chisels I use were hand made in Solingen.

Possible problem. Can you CNC machine tool steel after it is hardened and tempered? If you can, would it change the level of hardness? If I am correct, that you can't do this, you would only be able to CNC the pre-heat treat blank, and then it would have to be hand finish ground after heat treating. Sounds like an excersize in economic futility to me. And it would not be "hand made". Interesting thread, however.

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Originally Posted by skipnord

Possible problem. Can you CNC machine tool steel after it is hardened and tempered? If you can, would it change the level of hardness? If I am correct, that you can't do this, you would only be able to CNC the pre-heat treat blank, and then it would have to be hand finish ground after heat treating. Sounds like an excersize in economic futility to me. And it would not be "hand made". Interesting thread, however.

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Sure you can with Carbide.@ 9.0 on the MOHS scale, is almost as hard as diamond.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Sure you can with Carbide.@ 9.0 on the MOHS scale, is almost as hard as diamond.

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EDM is not machining in the sense that material is cut away in the conventional way. Many thousand of sparks at micron scale erode material. Effectively the tool and the work piece are electrodes. Typically this arrangement is immersed in a cooled oil so will never really get hot enough to affect the temper of the piece. Heat treatment would be the first operation. EDM can sink shapes in the form of shaped electrodes or an electrode can follow computer controlled cad model of the desired shape. This equipment costs many thousands of pounds, to get a return on this investment companies typically produce production dies which in turn mass produce parts. one off razors would not be viable economically. In short this is sophisticated stock removal (subtractive). The rapid prototype revolution will at some point impact upon this existing technology and bring the cost of the kit down.

Could be. But anything capable of precision removing hardened tool steel is not going to be cheap or easy to use.

Thanks to Deckard and Pixelfixed for correcting me about CNC machining hardened steel. One of the main reasons I love this Forum is that I learn something new almost every day. Thanks again, guys.

The only feasibility (there is a real one) I see is shaping said annealed blade with a CNC and then hardening it...but you would still need that final grind. Otherwise, milling tool steel would be very expensive. I pondered this idea too as I what got me in on making blades was getting in on a large razor blank order that a member offered years ago. I love working with my hands, so that seed took.

Great thread guys. Technology has always played a large part in our world (I'm including knifemakers here too). We're always trying to push the envelope with everything from new HT methods to the final hone. There are those in the knifemaking world already that just CNC all their parts, do a small grind on the blade, HT it, then put it all together and call it hand made. Then, of course there are those of us that do almost everything really by hand and feel, some out of necessity and others out of a reverence for the craft.

I think the greatest makers are the ones that are able to look at the technology available to them and implement it where necessary to produce the finest product. This is a counterpoint to those that use technology to get ahead or take a shortcut. Look at some of the crazy stuff Tim Zowada does with his amazing milled tang inlays and his salt baths. Even then, the man can still smelt his own steel and forge some great pieces. Look at Magnus Axelsson and all the prohibitively expensive technology he uses. Still, the way he employs it makes a distinct piece that no one would debate is art.

So, I guess my point is that it's all in the way we incorporate technology into the process, not how we rely on it. I don't think I'd slap down a few hundred bucks for something that was crapped out of a CNC...and I know I'm not alone on that:)

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

I guess if you want to do full scale production, you could always follow mass production methods of wood chisels.
How its made chisel - YouTube

And yet most of the chisels I use were hand made in Solingen.

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Aside from more hand finishing, it's not that far off. The blanks that are used in solingen are die forged in general and then ground.

Those are just die forged and then polished. Difference in the hardening process and the grinding, but the composition of the steel and the finish hardness is probably similar (high 50s).

Yep.
A wood chisel ideal hardness is 58-62 HRC. Hard enough to cut, soft enough to hone.
A good chisel face is usually hollow ground as well, 1/4 hollow, 1/2 hollow, full hollow, are just some of the options. The cheap ones are just straight wedges.