Some thoughts about horn.

Some thoughts about horn

I have worked with, fabricated, and cussed horn scales for a few years. Even new, they tend to warp or twist. What to do?

My experience is that the antique razors with horn scales that were not warped were ones that I received in coffins, whether original or not. ¿Hmmm?

Gave me an idea...I had tried wetting one side of the short scale and it worked for a couple days. I also tried laying the short scale on a dampened cloth for a few days and that worked somewhat longer. ¿What would happen to the scales if they were hung like little bats by their tails from magnets for long enough to become equally saturated or dried throughout each scale?

Well, after a few weeks even those distorted by a quarter inch to one side had approached normal.
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...me/crop1-1.jpg

From that, my take is: if the entire razor is at the same humidity / moisture retention, the scales will approximate the original shape at pinning after being normalized for a varying length of time. That may not work as quickly, or at all for razors with pewter inlays in one scale, but it did help a lot!

Maybe storing horn razors in coffins could be the way to reduce the problems with the scales warping?

YMMV; of course!
~Richard

Gravity???????

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Gravity???????

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Yes, that may also help the normalization to be equal, didn't think about that ...
Thanks!
~Richard
PS. Razors shown are both old stock and new rescales that had warped badly. Some of their buddies are hanging around yet.

that is an interesting thought train. I often take put them in a ziploc with oil and it seems to change things very slightly, perhaps if I followed it with the bat method the end results would be an even more true scale. I'll have to follow you on this one, of course that means I need to get some more razors.

I hear the neatsfoot oil is good to recondition the old horn scales. Moisturizes I guess ? So far most all of my old Sheffield horn scaled razors are fine. Maybe the fact that being in a tropical climate, with plenty of humidity, and never using 'heat' in the winter, keeps the atmosphere they are stored in more friendly to the old things ? :thinking:

Interesting thoughts on stabilizing horn scale moisture content. Has anyone tried sealing both sides of a non warped horn scale with crazy glue to see if remains straight from being sealed?

Bob

Like Ivory and Bone,horn is hygroscopic,It expands with Humidty Changes.
Do not Know about horn but I can Gaurantee that if you seal Ivory on both sides it will Crack.

Yea, that is a problem with horn as it tends to gain or loose moisture like ivory, hygroscopic effect, and changes shape because of it. If horn can be sealed so that it can neither gain nor loose moisture content you would think it would stay straight and not warp.

I am guessing that whatever the ivory was sealed with still allowed moisture to escape but not enter the ivory so it cracks when it dries out. Whatever the sealant used should allow no in or ex-filtration of moisture to stabilize the moisture content of the object sealed.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yea, that is a problem with horn as it tends to gain or loose moisture like ivory, hygroscopic effect, and changes shape because of it. If horn can be sealed so that it can neither gain nor loose moisture content you would think it would stay straight and not warp.

I am guessing that whatever the ivory was sealed with still allowed moisture to escape but not enter the ivory so it cracks when it dries out. Whatever the sealant used should allow no in or ex-filtration of moisture to stabilize the moisture content of the object sealed.

Bob

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They never sealed Ivory,they Oiled it with mineral oil,This allows transpiration as do's ren-wax.
I can ship Ivory from my local with a humidty of 25% to Florida with a Humidity of 90% and it will Expand up to .004 of an inch (yes Ihave Measured it).
I have seen Ivory collections (netsuki) that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollors,they are stored in Climate controlled cabinates, removed once a year and oiled.
If you ever buy raw ivory let it stabilize in your local for several weeks before working with it or it can cause you grief.
Store items containing Ivory as you would fine wines or cigars.

Yea, I understand that. I do not disbelieve you.

If whatever material, be it ivory, horn or any other, whose cells can and do take in or release moisture be sealed with a non permeable barrier then they should neither shrink nor expand. Obviously mineral oil and ren-wax are not up to that task so a controlled climate storage is the only way to try and preserve them. I don't know if such a sealant exists just asking.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Yea, I understand that. I do not disbelieve you.

If whatever material, be it ivory, horn or any other, whose cells can and do take in or release moisture be sealed with a non permeable barrier then they should neither shrink nor expand. Obviously mineral oil and ren-wax are not up to that task so a controlled climate storage is the only way to try and preserve them. I don't know if such a sealant exists just asking.

Bob

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Define Sealant,you cannot seal some natural materials,perhaps protectorant is a better word.

Looked up "sealant definition" and the first result was this "material used for sealing something so as to make it airtight or watertight.". I would think that mineral oil and ren-wax might better classed as a protectorate.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Looked up "sealant definition" and the first result was this "material used for sealing something so as to make it airtight or watertight.". I would think that mineral oil and ren-wax might better classed as a protectorate.

Bob

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Agreed>>>>>>>>>>

Just a further thought...Do not oil or preserve the scales till AFTER the normalizing process or..It will take twice or three times as long to get both scales the same and may be never! Yup...I did and now know better!
~Richard

HOLY CR@P, now I have to buy a new humidor or else smoke up all the cigars I have just to make room for my horn scaled razors. Will the madness never end?

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Originally Posted by guitstik

HOLY CR@P, now I have to buy a new humidor or else smoke up all the cigars I have just to make room for my horn scaled razors. Will the madness never end?

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No, not really! Just assure each razor either has a place vertically for free air movement or in a case where both scales receive the same humidity.
Some tooth brush tubes:Attachment 171374
~Richard
Dollar stores usually have some of differing types.

Lets not forget that most if not all old horn scales were formed by heating and clamping in a vice, At the heats used thermoplastic horn nearly melts, some old descriptions of the clamps mention horn dripping down the sides, so on occasion it did become liquid.

In order to stop the clamps rusting and prevent the horn sticking, copious amounts of talllow were used. This is an animal fat and for all I know it mixed with the horn if the horn was liquid enough.

Once the clamps are cooled, a lengthy process in some instances seeing as how descriptions say a hole was dug and a set or rack of clamps was buried in it, the horn blanks were removed, trimmed and oiled with neatsfoot oil.

They were then polished, using tripoli powder in oil, cleaned, oile again, put into pairs and sent to the settr-in, who installed tbe blade, No doubt a final coat of oily or waxy matter was applied before wrapping in waxed paper znd sealing in coffin boxes ready for sale.

Thats a lot of fat, oil and wax protecting the scale.

I don't know but strongly suspect that warping is a kind of reversion to the horns natural state: a tapered, curving, conical form forced flat by beat.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Lets not forget that most if not all old horn scales were formed by heating and clamping in a vice, At the heats used thermoplastic horn nearly melts, some old descriptions of the clamps mention horn dripping down the sides, so on occasion it did become liquid.

In order to stop the clamps rusting and prevent the horn sticking, copious amounts of talllow were used. This is an animal fat and for all I know it mixed with the horn if the horn was liquid enough.

Once the clamps are cooled, a lengthy process in some instances seeing as how descriptions say a hole was dug and a set or rack of clamps was buried in it, the horn blanks were removed, trimmed and oiled with neatsfoot oil.

They were then polished, using tripoli powder in oil, cleaned, oile again, put into pairs and sent to the settr-in, who installed tbe blade, No doubt a final coat of oily or waxy matter was applied before wrapping in waxed paper znd sealing in coffin boxes ready for sale.

Thats a lot of fat, oil and wax protecting the scale.

I don't know but strongly suspect that warping is a kind of reversion to the horns natural state: a tapered, curving, conical form forced flat by beat.

Regards,
Neil

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Interesting,have actually tried to melt horn to use as a filler on worm holes without success.
Being Keritan, it burns instead of melts.

That reminds me Pixel - I missed out a step. You need to get it hot first - boiling in water does not work - water does not get hot enough. So it was boiled in oil. Yet more oil! And boiled in it!

It will burn if the heat is on the dry side, You can bend it by softening it in hot water, but it will not 'flow'.

The fact that plenty of early drinking vessels were made by horn 'melted' at the edges is testament to the fact that it can, was and is done. We are talking about flat bottomed horns here, not the scooped-out variety.

If you heat horn locally for long enough it will dehydrate, even if boiled in water to soften it, then it will scorch and never get plastic. You can use dry heat, but you have to be very practiced at it and keep the horn on the move over a grill perhaps, or play a hot air stripper over it. Smell the stinking burnt-nails smell? They you have scorched it and better call it a day.

Hot oil (or hot lard) is the way to go, and 320 degrees is the temperature to aim at (in oil - 'dry' heating in an oven at 300 degrees will do it) - higher than that and the horn will turn plastic in the oil and melt into it.

Arthur Church's book 'Some Minor Arts as Practiced in England' 1894 has some good info as does 'The Living Crafts', a delightful little book published by Bernard Hughes in 1971. The Horners bible, should there be such a thing, is undoubtedly Taylor Wilmot's 'The Sheffield Horn Industry' published in 1927.

And finally yes, horn - like our finger and toe nails, is composed of keratin.

Regards,
Neil