Old farriers rasp: any annealing tips most welcome :)

'Evening everyone,

Having escaped last month from my little apartment into a house with a nice big garage/shop, I have finally begun building my forge and collecting the bits and pieces to do some blacksmithing at home. One project that will be coming down the pipe at some point will be turning an old farrier's rasp into a knife and (eventually, once my skills have developed a bit) a razor.

Obviously I won't want to be working on the rasp as-is as it's bloody hard. Any suggestions regarding annealing it to make it workable? Anything to make sure I avoid? I am familiar with the more traditional blacksmith's approach of eyeballing temps by colour and I lack accurate high-temp thermometers, so unfortunately #s won't be of much use to me. But if you have any advice that can be related to colour or magnetic properties I would really appreciate it.

No rush at all BTW. I need to finish building the forge then get used to using propane rather than coal, which all my other blacksmithing has used, so it will likely be quite some time before I tackle this project.

Thanks :)

No real life experience, but from what I have read heat to non magnetic and allow to cool very slowly in something like vermiculite. Not sure if it would be different with a farriers rasp. I am curious as to what other says since always good to learn something from those more experienced.

I'm throwing this out there hoping those who can verify, or refute the info will do so. I knew an old ironworker/welder who had done a lot of time in prison. He told me, 40 years ago when I was an apprentice, that he would take files, heat them cherry red, and cover them with lime. He said, IIRC, that he'd leave them overnight and that when they were cooled off they were flexible enough to be like spring steel where if you stabbed someone in the ribs, the blade would snake around the bones rather than break. :gaah:

I don't know if this method of annealing is doable, or if the results of doing it that way would be as he described. You hear so much "stuff" as you go through life. :shrug: :gl:

Prison shanks are bound by a different set of rules...

As to simple annealing, yes, heat to non magnetic, at least a dull orange and allow to cool overnight slowly. Vermiculite, the micaceous stuff not the styrofoam stuff, or wood ashes will do the trick nicely. It should be soft enough to grind a lot more easily.

I would recommend removing the "teeth" of the rasp. It's too easy to leave a cold shut without realizing it and when heat treating the blades that result from the work, sometimes those shuts can lead to unwanted surprises.

"Jimmy's Floppy Shiv Co."

With prisons being such a growth industry, there's probably a buck or two to be made there. :)

Thanks guys - that was what I was thinking, so it's reassuring to have confirmation. And thanks for the teeth recommendation - I hadn't thought about the possibility of them presenting potential problems. Too bad as I think they would look great on the shank. Ah well...

I've quenched a knife made from a file that had cold shuts. After the quench, the blade had a couple of marble sized pustules :)

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I've quenched a knife made from a file that had cold shuts. After the quench, the blade had a couple of marble sized pustules :)

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Pustules?! Cripes... this is getting worse!

Been there, done that.

A farrier's rasp is not a good candidate for a knife or a razor. They're case hardened, which means that the hardness is only a few molecules deep into the rasp.

You can easily anneal one by heating it cherry red and letting it cool on its own, that is no quench nor blowing air. Just set it on something and let it cool. Then you'll have a dead soft rasp looking object you can abuse at your leisure without wearing your grinding belts and stones as quickly.

My recommendation is to get some good steel and start fresh. By doing that you can look up the process for working and heat treating. It's a crap shoot with a file. It may work, or you may gain a lot of experience and practice for the next one.

When I ran my smithy and made knives, I sought out old circle saw blades 24" and larger. 99% of those were made from L6 steel. L6 will anneal down to around 36 and you can make it go to 62-64 on the Rockwell scale. It'll cut glass at that hardness BUT it is brittle. So are most razor blades. ;)

There are some knife makers out there that have made serviceable knives from files. They told me it required a fast quench, both at heat treating and tempering. I had no luck at when I tried and I burned up several old files trying.

I wish I could still swing a hammer and beat some hot steel. Those days are behind me and I can't afford a trip hammer. :/

I have used files and rasps, the nicholsons are the best of the lot they are 1095 carbon steel. as for annealing I used a blanket of kaowool avalible at most knife making suppliers and all forge makers have it. the above info is correct and the recommendation you get a good steel is also. 1095 isn't that expensive, starting out I would recommend you use 1084 or 1075, either can be quenched in water and yield a knife you will be proud of, heat to non magnetic and quench, then three 2 hr cycles at around 450 degrees to draw it down and you have made your blade. I used a disc harrow blade once heat to non mag and buried it in dirt to anneal it, the dirt was under a firepit that was very warm though to start off and the disc was heated in my old champion coal forge. I still have the forge but no coal, switched to the atlas mini forge and haven't looked back. I built three forges on my own and always ended up spending more on each of them than the atlas cost ready to go out of the box just add lp gas and a match to light, go to storm the castle and look at the atlas forge page, that is my forge, while there look under knives made by web visitors and see what I make.
i get my steel from the new jersey steel baron, aldo has fine steel.

I had a co-worker to give me 6 of them (he is a part time farrier) for a knife. I don't run a fireplace, so ash is out for me. My intent is to get a bag of vermiculite myself for stock removal...but if you are going to work the steel on the anvil just take it to non-magnetic and hammer away.

I haven't made it to the shop since I received the files unfortunately...

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

I had a co-worker to give me 6 of them (he is a part time farrier) for a knife. I don't run a fireplace, so ash is out for me. My intent is to get a bag of vermiculite myself for stock removal...but if you are going to work the steel on the anvil just take it to non-magnetic and hammer away.

I haven't made it to the shop since I received the files unfortunately...

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Been great weather for playing in the fire lately. :)

Git 'er done!

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Originally Posted by Wullie

Been great weather for playing in the fire lately. :)

Git 'er done!

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You are absolutely right, except I made a idiot mistake and am out of gas. Only about a third of a bottle in the grill, so no since stealing it. I did get some lights wired to the blacksmith area...just need to pick up some 100w bulbs.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...ing-steel.html

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...ing-steel.html

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Forging Public Service Announcement.

I figure the old hands know this already, but thought I'd share it with those that may not be aware.

When checking a piece of metal for heat, as in IS IT TOO DAMN HOT TO HANDLE, use the back of your hand. The skin on the back of your hand is thinner and more sensitive to radiated heat. It's much quicker to tell if a piece of metal is hot/uncomfortably warm that way.

AND if you mess up and stick the back of your hand or fingers to a really hot one, a blister on the back of your hand or finger is easier to keep working with. ;)

That way you won't have to do like the old cowboy that picked up a hot horse shoe and then tossed it down real fast. When he did that the smith asked him if it was hot.

He replied that it just didn't take him very long to look at a horse shoe.:gaah:

Just to add to Wullie's PSA.
Get an instant read "laser" thermometer. They cost less than $50 (USD) which is cheaper than going to hospital. It's also useful for checking the temperature of drill bits, saw blades, and that small piece of slag that is too small to feel the heat from, but burns through your glove when you pick it up.

If the young smith held on to the hot piece too long, the tendons would contract and the grip will tighten. No letting go after that and it just keeps making things worsefrom there. Learn to use the back of your hand! Great advice.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

If the young smith held on to the hot piece too long, the tendons would contract and the grip will tighten. No letting go after that and it just keeps making things worsefrom there. Learn to use the back of your hand! Great advice.

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Reminds me of my classmate who had the brilliant idea of making an extra long power extension by putting 2 plugs on a very long cable, which he was then going to plug into a free socket on one of those power bricks with multiple outlets.

He plugged it in the wall socket first, and upon trying to put the other end in the brick, it slipped, and he caught the prongs between thumb and index finger. Couldn't let go after that. In the end he put his foot on the cable and yanked his hand loose. 3d degree burns to the bone. Good times... Good times...

Oh. He was majoring in power distribution at the time. :)

You mean to tell me that the hissing sound that doesn't hurt immediately isn't a good thing? Yep, good advice indeed...back of the hand.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

Just to add to Wullie's PSA.
Get an instant read "laser" thermometer. They cost less than $50 (USD) which is cheaper than going to hospital. It's also useful for checking the temperature of drill bits, saw blades, and that small piece of slag that is too small to feel the heat from, but burns through your glove when you pick it up.

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+1 to the bit about drill bits. Was drilling a piece of Jarrah and went to change bits, instant blister :\

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

Just to add to Wullie's PSA.
Get an instant read "laser" thermometer. They cost less than $50 (USD) which is cheaper than going to hospital. It's also useful for checking the temperature of drill bits, saw blades, and that small piece of slag that is too small to feel the heat from, but burns through your glove when you pick it up.

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You wear gloves?
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...ed_354109a.jpg

J/K.

I wore welder's gloves when I was hogging steel off a blank with a 60 grit belt and wasn't worried about the heat in the blank. Rest of the time, I was bare handed.

A 60 grit belt will go through a glove's finger faster than a cat can lick his butt too. Ground off a bit of a finger tip on more than one occasion by not watching what I was doing.

Always did my finish grinding bare handed so I could tell when things were warming up. Never messed up the temper on an edge that way. ;)

+1. I wear gloves only when grinding metal before heat treatment, because fast is mroe important than cool.
After HT, I work bare handed.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

+1. I wear gloves only when grinding metal before heat treatment, because fast is mroe important than cool.
After HT, I work bare handed.

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Same here. I grind with no jigs or tables though so no gloves can get caught between the belt and table for a nasty catch. Never wear gloves for anything else. Gloves and drill press is a recipe for disaster. After HT it is imperative in my opinion to use no gloves so you can feel the heat of the blade and not ruin the temper.

As a matter of fact, in Belgium it is against OHSA guidelines to wear gloves when using stationary rotary power tools.

It's against guidelines in the US to wear gloves while using rotary equipment as well. And for good reason too. I've seen people with gloves on get pulled into grinders, table saws, drill presses, and somehow or another a band saw. If you want to keep your fingers and hands, don't wear gloves around a rotating equipment.

I don't think warnings against using gloves on tools like those can be repeated too often. I'm always amazed at how many videos on YouTube show people working with gloves on sanders, grinders, etc. Makes me cringe every time.

Also if you have long hair put it in a pony tail or wear a hat to keep it from coming in contact with said rotating device or hot piece of metal. Also DO NOT wear rings when doing this type of work! No one wants their ring finger skinned!

Slawman

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Originally Posted by Slawman

Also if you have long hair put it in a pony tail or wear a hat to keep it from coming in contact with said rotating device or hot piece of metal. Also DO NOT wear rings when doing this type of work! No one wants their ring finger skinned!

Slawman

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I have not worn a wedding ring since about day three of the marriage. Her father did wear a band for all the reasons listed above.

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

I don't think warnings against using gloves on tools like those can be repeated too often. I'm always amazed at how many videos on YouTube show people working with gloves on sanders, grinders, etc. Makes me cringe every time.

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That's probably to balance for all the youtube morons who forgeweld damascus bars wearing no googles, no gloves, and nothing sturdier than a short sleeve tshirt. that is just stupid dangerous.

Or idiots casting molten metal without special safety precaution.

Hi,
I probably didn't have the equipment you had so my reply probably wont help. But here is my 2 cents. But I have made a ugly razor, and a knife from files before.
I live in Newfoundland, so we have a good fire going for the better part of the year, I just heated the file up to a nice red glow (don't need to be that hard) then I buried the file under the ashes, under the coals for an hour or two. When is came out it was soft enough to gum up a file.
Heat treating after shaping the blade is a different sorry, that is hit and miss for me...

Are you talking about a knife like this??

Attachment 185292Attachment 185291

Guy up the road from me makes these, let me know if you want his info, he has been helpful to me

Heat to non magnetic and then leave point down in a 5 gallon bucket of fine sifted hardwood ashes.imo it works fine.cheers.

go to the amish if you want your ashes asap.they use a lot of oak/hickory here in missouri to cook all year around.