Cold weather forging

'Evening folks,

I have a cold-weather forging question for you. After having been cooped up inside sick for the last several days I was hoping to get out to the workshop this evening and hammer some very hot things. But then I got to thinking: is there potential for damage in cold weather to my equipment. Most importantly my anvil. In other words, is there potential to damage the face of my anvil when it is what we humans would consider very cold when I introduce it to steel at forging temperatures?

As an FYI, it is about -20 to -25c (around -4 to -13f for my Unitedstatesian neighbours) here at the moment. While I can easily bump the air temp up to a more reasonable working temp, that won't have much affect on the anvil for a while.

On the one hand, certain things start to get quite brittle at these temps. But on the other, the temperature differential right now is not that much more than if it was, say 0c. (i.e. 1225 degrees vs 1200 degrees)

Any ideas?

The short answer is yes. Spalling is more likely in the cold. It does depend on hardness so the harder the steel the more likely to see cracking chipping etc. Most old blacksmiths recommend warming up the significant tools to be used especially if they are going to get a hard workout.

You could speed up the anvil by resting some hot steel on it.

I have the interest, but lack the funds and appropriate space for smithing, so I am addicted to another forum that I know I've seen cold weather forging discussed. Go to I Forge Iron
If i remember his handle correctly, you will find posts by Frosty the Lucky to be of special interest to you. Btw, the search function on that site has room for improvement.
Long-story-short, warming the anvil is recommended.

I dunno. Being at BobAllman's once in the fall, it was good to get away from the forge! Plenty hot! :D

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

I dunno. Being at BobAllman's once in the fall, it was good to get away from the forge! Plenty hot! :D

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Come on up here in January or February! Heat isn't usually the problem... :)

You can definitely mess up a cold anvil, hammer, or hardie. I have seen horn tips break off and hardies split in half. I have had the ball crack off of a ball peen hammer. I've heard of, but never seen, a face split. Even though it rarely dips below 0 F where I live, if it is cooler than 40 F I will wrap my anvil, hammers, and hardies in an electric blanket the night before I plan to use it. Once the forge is fired up to temperature, everything within 10 feet stays warm.

I have heard of felling axes breaking off the edge when they're frozen, and the guy advised to keep the axeshead under your jacket on the way to the job to get them at body temp. Forging at -20 C is not an issue for me. It my get to -15 outside one a cold winter, but usually it doesn't go below -5, and the couple of days that it actually freezes is very low.

I knew about he axes & old axmen keeping their blades next to the body, but never really thought about my anvil. My winter has been relatively mild this year & has been hovering around freezing for the most part. My anvil is about 5' away from my forge, so if I'm running the forge, the anvil will warm up fine...but I really never considered it. Good thread and info...

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

so if I'm running the forge, the anvil will warm up fine...but I really never considered it. Good thread and info...

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Not really. It takes a heck of a time for an anvil to even notice the red hot steel you're banging on top of it.
And forge fires are built to keep heat inside, as much as possible, nevermind the fact that it is 5' away from your anvil.

So if your anvil is well below freezing temperatures when you light the fire, don't count on the air convection to heat up the anvil before you might damage the anvil.

What can happed to an anvil? can you crack it if cold?

Thermal shock. It could likely crack and chip. But you also have to be careful when warming it: you could inadvertently temper it, which is what often leads to the edges of the face getting chipped round on older anvils. Too much hot steel for too long is bad for an anvil.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

What can happed to an anvil? can you crack it if cold?

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Yes, depending on your definition of cold. :)
If it's freezing -25 celsius, steel becomes fairly brittle.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, depending on your definition of cold. :)
If it's freezing -25 celsius, steel becomes fairly brittle.

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The question is .......... are you a fair weather forger ? How is the weather ? Inquiring minds and all that ............ ;)

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The question is .......... are you a fair weather forger ? How is the weather ? Inquiring minds and all that ............ ;)

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:p

No worries Jimmy.

To help refine the subject matter a bit: anvilfire guru An anvil as described is more likely to break when there is damage present but not necessarily noticed. The author's comment about modern cast steel anvils should not be missed.

Cracking or spalling has numerous variables that have to be considered, not just ambient temperature.

I use unhardened 4140 for my anvils so heat treatment concerns are non existent in my case. They probably work harden over time, but there is not much that I can do by hand to cause them to deform when striking hot steel and I have no concern about the heat they take. Some days of forging needed a water soaked rag on them to help cool them off.

I believe a hardened anvil is more likely to crack or spall than a softer one especially when colder temps are in play. If you have a hardened anvil, by all means keep the temperatures you warm the anvil to, below a normal tempering temperature to retain the hardness you paid for.

Brings up a question,I bought a 150lb peter wright anvil at a gargage sale last year,75 bux,I sold it to a guy off the back of my truck before I drove off, I had no use for it.
Were these anvils hardened when made? or just cast.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Brings up a question,I bought a 150lb peter wright anvil at a gargage sale last year,75 bux,I sold it to a guy off the back of my truck before I drove off, I had no use for it.
Were these anvils hardened when made? or just cast.

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I hope you made a nice profit on that! Peter Wrights are fine hunks of steel. :) (full disclosure, the anvil that is currently freezing its arse off in my garage is a Peter Wright so I may be a bit biased)

My understanding of this - and I certainly stand to be corrected - is that the body was cast in one or two pieces, and then a hardened face plate welded on. I know that's one method of manufacture, but I'm not 100% sure that's the process PW used.

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

I hope you made a nice profit on that! Peter Wrights are fine hunks of steel. :) (full disclosure, the anvil that is currently freezing its arse off in my garage is a Peter Wright so I may be a bit biased)

My understanding of this - and I certainly stand to be corrected - is that the body was cast in one or two pieces, and then a hardened face plate welded on. I know that's one method of manufacture, but I'm not 100% sure that's the process PW used.

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Made a major profit,just have no use for an anvil.
I live in farm country and go to barn sales all the time,I see lots of anvils for sale.

,,,,,,is working the BBQ grill in 60 degree weather Attachment 190506

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

,,,,,,is working the BBQ grill in 60 degree weather Attachment 190506

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Maybe that's what was on these guys' minds the other night...

:rofl2:

,,,,,,,,,,,,at least my post had some humor in it,,:(

dat ain't right Cangooner,,,,:mad:

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

I hope you made a nice profit on that! Peter Wrights are fine hunks of steel. :) (full disclosure, the anvil that is currently freezing its arse off in my garage is a Peter Wright so I may be a bit biased)

My understanding of this - and I certainly stand to be corrected - is that the body was cast in one or two pieces, and then a hardened face plate welded on. I know that's one method of manufacture, but I'm not 100% sure that's the process PW used.

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Those are excellent anvils. And from what I understand, if it was cast like that, it doesn't ring as much.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, depending on your definition of cold. :)
If it's freezing -25 celsius, steel becomes fairly brittle.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

The question is .......... are you a fair weather forger ? How is the weather ? Inquiring minds and all that ............ ;)

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Yep, at -25C, you bet your tail I am a fair weather forger. I don't use gloves with my hammer hand...doesn't feel right. Where I am from, -25C is the end of the world. I'm not sure, but I don't think we have seen -25F in a LONG time.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Yep, at -25C, you bet your tail I am a fair weather forger. I don't use gloves with my hammer hand...doesn't feel right. Where I am from, -25C is the end of the world. I'm not sure, but I don't think we have seen -25F in a LONG time.

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Bah - if you're out of the wind, -25 is a doddle. :)

I'm thinking of picking up either a battery blanket or a magnetic oil pan heater to use on my anvil to take the edge off the cold on days when I feel like braving the chill.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Yep, at -25C, you bet your tail I am a fair weather forger. I don't use gloves with my hammer hand...doesn't feel right. Where I am from, -25C is the end of the world. I'm not sure, but I don't think we have seen -25F in a LONG time.

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I don't mind cold. When you're swinging a hammer you get real warm real quick. The worst imo is light drizzle rain combined with a lot of wind. You get wet and cold. It doesn't freeze that often here.

Oh, and I don't know it you have forge welded yet, but when you do, you might want to give it a try WITH gloves on both hands, preferably leather, before deciding not to wear glove. Consider a stack of plates, molten flux in between at 800+ degrees Celsius, and a hammer coming down on top of that. :)

I have a roof over my head and a wall on the north and south side of me, so drizzle or wind doesn't bother me much. I just can't stand my fingers getting cold on my right hand. I cut my middle and ring finger tip off at the first joint at 18 yrs old. They saved them, but the circulation isn't the greatest and hurts like the dickens when cold...so no cold forging for me. You are right about warming up quick, not hard to break a light sweat at freezing & boy does it feel good. That cooldown is the booger...

Leather gloves are okay up to the point where they start to get warm inside from the heat of the fire or hot steel. By the time you, the smith, realize they are getting a little too warm, you plunge them into the quench tank in reflex. You instinctively think, "It's water, it cools things, this should work..."

But as it took time for the heat to penetrate (and it continues to build inside the leather, e.g. heat bloom and lag time), it takes time for the cool to penetrate too. You could have a burn despite trying to cool things down. This is known as a work interruption.

Over time, the heat distorts the leather, it can hold on to your hand a little better (Oooo, these are comfortable gloves...they fit my hand...) and be a lot harder to shake off your hand when the heat just won't stop and you need to get rid of them to avoid the above mentioned work interruption, ah but it's already too late isn't it?

I'm going to suggest either a kevlar type soft flexible weave glove or cotton for forging. They are cheaper and work quite well, all the while giving a better sense of grip. No you can't shake them off, but your sense of real-time temperatures is faster and you'll work smarter. If you get into trouble (heat lag) they cool much faster when plunged into water. Sure you might work wet, but you'll get used to that a lot easier than having to take a few weeks off while burns heal.

DO NOT purchase these gloves with any kind of plastic/nylon/nitrile coating or the little pebble thingees for texture. That stuff will simply melt into a form fitting skin burning cast.

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The idea here is that water will penetrate and stop the heat if you need it and you don't suffer the leather distortion in a more expensive glove.

If you're a sensitive kind of guy smith, these are available and will keep your arms from having a lot of speckled burn scars. Mechanix MHS-05-500 Heat Sleeves | FullSource.com

But you'll have to live with folks like me not believing you're a real smith. LOL

Oh, remember to cool off your tools every now and again.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

If you're a sensitive kind of guy smith, these are available and will keep your arms from having a lot of speckled burn scars. Mechanix MHS-05-500 Heat Sleeves | FullSource.com

But you'll have to live with folks like me not believing you're a real smith. LOL

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:p

I generally only care about my hands and my eyes. The rest can stand a bit of wear and tear.