Printable View
Does the type of forge used to make a straight razor change the perceived value of the razor? I am gong to use a propane forge, however I had a friend mention that some people would rather have something made in a coal forge.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Interesting question. I'm going to move this to the Workshop sub forum, The Forge. I'm thinking more folks who might have a good answer will see it.
Not as far as I am aware. I know some smiths have a personal preference. I know one who swears by coal. Another who uses propane. And I myself use charcoal. Trust me on this one: the type of fire you use matters diddly squat to the perceived value of your razors or how well they will sell. I've never had a customer who asked.
A traditional purist may have a preference to charcoal fired over gas.
But at the end of the day it's about the steal not the heat source.
Can't see any reason for perceived value difference myself
Intellectually, factually, I know that stock removal is as good a source of blade steel as hand forged, but there is a 'romance' in a hand forged blade that I just don't feel in a blade fashioned by stock removal. In the old days of the custom knife world a Loveless probably brought as much as a Moran, but for me the Moran was the one. Whether coal, charcoal or gas, I never gave that much thought.
I've seen people on the Internet that sell knives and emphasize they use a coal forge like it's the best way. I feel marketing wise when people think traditional items like knives and razors they may favor ones that were made "traditionally". I haven't really looked but I have yet to notice anyone that emphasizes they use a propane forge or rather not enough for something to stick in my mind.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Coal is important for knife forging because it allows to adjust the carbon content of steel. Not sure if that matter for razors at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehattr
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
There are specific ways in which you can carbonate steel, but forging isn't one of them. No matter what, carbon content goes down during forging. In the time needed to forge a knife, i doubt you could identify what kind of fire was used.
There are other factors why forging is preferable to stock removal imo.
You can make shapes that are outside of the size of the stock you're working with.
You can forge the shaped almost to finish, so you have to remove a lot less stock. And if the shape is more or less correct, you can follow the surfaces that are already there, instead of having to symmetrically remove a lot of stock from a rectangular bar.
You can make expensive material last for longer because you waste less. With simple steel this doesn't matter a whole lot, but with wootz or Damascus, it does.
And of course, it's just good fun.
Sorry Bruno, but in this instance you are wrong. Unlike the other two fuels, your charcoal is sustainable, and therefore is a better option! This is an untapped marketing tool available to you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
:)
Knives are far bigger and much more matured market. It may be just a matter of numbers and the niche for coal forged razors is very small at this time. Given your observations denying its potential would be silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehattr
In a blind test, nobody could yell the difference. The steel doesn't care.
If they know how to use a coal fire forge then no difference.
If they don't coke the coal first then you get sulfur and other crap in the steel and the blade sucks.
Personally, I find a propane forge produces a better blade due to consistent fire control - or maybe I just suck with using coal.
You know, my charcoal says on th ebags that it comes from CO2 neutral sustainable forest management. Might be a good marketing slogan for the tofu crowd :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
...and your steel is made from all-natural ores without synthetic additives or preservatives on top of being highly recyclable and beneficial to the environment, preventing the dumping of potentially thousands of cart's during its lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
ps - I hate tofu, but I do like me some edemame.
We have a on-the-one-hand versus the other disparity. Bruno has opined that forging causes carbon loss and Mainaman allows that the smith can adjust the carbon content. Both are right and Mainaman tends toward being a little more right in this case. All that's needed is more time and experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
A knowledgable smith can adjust the atmosphere of most any type of fire (independent of fuel source). When I'm welding patterned stuff, I want a reducing atmosphere (carbon rich - generally carbon monoxide). This also holds true when I'm smelting steel at home. The carbon gradient tends to mean that iron will absorb more carbon than is burned away and steel will form. If I have steel that has too much carbon, an oxidizing fire (oxygen rich) will burn away surface carbon from the steel. A carbon neutral atmosphere suggests no carbon loss or gain.
From my experience with coal (worked these fires for about seven years) and charcoal, the forge can exhibit all three types of atmosphere that are dependent on the distance of the heat from the tuyere (the source of oxygen). A knowledgeable smith could hold the material in the right part of the fire to accomplish any of the above goals. I would say that a propane forge is a more even environment but there will be more oxygen nearer the port where the air/gas mix enters the forge and a knowledgeable smith can control the air gas temperature mix to produce the atmosphere they want by adjusting the fuel burn.
Scott is right...the steel don't care what kind of heat it is.
Jimmy's right about the romance. There was an intense argument about forging vs stock removal about 30 plus years ago. The truth of that disagreement is that all things become equal in the heat treatment and there is essentially no difference in the final product if the HT is good. Plus, all steel is forged from the ladle to general barstock sizes. Anything a hand-smith does is minor compared to all that work done beforehand and won't likely influence performance to any great degree if their shop practices are acceptable (nothing is fool-proof). In the end, the forger still has to grind away some steel and we all become stock removal types to some degree or other.
As always, there are variables that can change any of the above.
I just have to step in here as a moderator ............ Please note the unwritten SRP rule when replying to this ...... or any thread ......
:brunoisright
Thank you for your understanding ........... :rofl2:
Jimmy, I considered that doctrine far longer than it took to write my response. The hardest part was deciding if I should go to hospital and claim chest pain or surrender to the witness protection program.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
Thanks to the posters for a technically enlightening thread. That said, as an end user all I personally care about is that the end product has the correct geometry, an excellent grind and is properly heat treated so as to be eminently usable. How it winds up that way I'll leave for the expert makers to worry about and take all claims of which method of production is superior with a grain of salt.
OTH this thread has given me a better appreciation of the effort and skill that goes into making a blade.
Bob
But Mike, you at least said he was right but went on to explain how others also were right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
I said he was wrong.
:dropjaw:
What the heck should I do?
You're on thin ice Ron ...... ";"Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Become an understudy to Jason Bourne? One way mission to Mars?Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Oh well. I will still be expecting you in November, Mike :D
Btw, note that I wrote 'in the time needed to forge a knife' or something to that effect.
A couple of heats to forging temperatures. Would that really make a difference depending on the fire?
One smith told me that while ABS journeyman knives are supposed to be forged by hand, there's probably a good number who stock remove. As you say, after HT no one knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
Keep going I am learning a lot :)
Given a choice between Coal or Charcoal what would it be ???
In your case, Glen, I would lean towards charcoal. Don't you have a bunch of trees that need thinning on your property?Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
LOL yes there is the cost factor for me
I can have all the Charcoal I want for free
Hmmmmm I wonder what the different types of woods will do when it comes to Temperature
I have worked both with good effect. The coal can make some nasty smoke, but up where you live there are no neighbors to upset and the coal is a more concentrated form of BTU. Once you've "coked" the coal (burnt off the sulfur and other crud) it's very good heat. Charcoal can spit at you (wear safety glasses and get used to hot spots on your skin) but it's a good heat too. You can make your own charcoal quite easily and pine/fir is an excellent base wood for that sort of thing. One researcher proved that it only takes 26 acres to keep a smithy/smelter running year round as a renewable supply of wood/charcoal. See Rehder, The Mastery of Fire and it's uses in Antiquity. You won't denude the planet making fuel to work iron or steel.
With all forms of fire, there is a learning curve to ready the fuel, shape the heat and get useful work done.
When I refer to charcoal, I mean lump coal, not briquettes.
A benefit of coal or charcoal is that the heat goes up, whereas with propane, there is typically a horizontal cone of heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
And unlike propane, neither can go boom.
Of the 2, charcoal is the healthier one in terms of byproducts.
I like charcoal. One thing is it burns relatively quickly, so you need to learn to keep a steady fire going by regularly adding the right amount of charcoal.
I was assuming I could sift out quite a bit of Charcoal from the wood stove all winter long...
Btw I don't know if this is true or not, but in a vikings novel I once read a description of a smith making steel from iron by shoving bars in between the wood that was being turned into charcoal. In the story there was a 50 / 50 success ratio.
Sure, why waste it? Charcoaling is essentially heating the wood to a temperature that out-gasses all the volatiles. Any wood that fell into the ash layer of a fire will be starved of oxygen and cooked by the heat in the stove forming charcoal.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I used to do the same thing and then take the charcoal fines and mix them into the garden compost. That made for some very good dirt that would hold nutrients and water quite well. See Terra Preta.
At temperatures that would ensure the carbon diffusing into the iron bars, I think there wouldn't be much charcoal left. Charcoal forms around 280C plus or minus and carbon diffuses into steel at or about 750C. All of the metallurgical studies of carbon diffusion don't have any data below that temperature. But, iron is always subject to time at temperature so I suppose that you could hold the temperature at 280C for long enough to make steel, but I don't know how practical that would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Everyone is correct from their point of view, we all get medals. I like that :rock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blue
:) that is exactly where the Ash and Charcoal hod has been dumped for all these years, I think from now on I will sift out the larger stuff :)
I actually have a screen sieve box that will work perfectly for this
I remember watching a vid of Mastro Livi forging a razor. Heats and beats, sits it right in the coals until the color gets 'right' and then beats some more, sits it back in ......... IIRC
Maybe the 'romance' I mentioned stems from my imagination, as a kid in grade school, when I heard Longfellow's poem. No computers, videos, just imagination ;
The Village Blacksmith
Under a spreading chestnut tree
The village smithy stands;
The Smith, a mighty man is he,
With large and sinewy hands;
And the muscles of his brawny arms
Are strong as iron bands.
His hair is crisp, and black, and long,
His face is like the tan;
His brow is wet with honest sweat,
He earns whate'er he can
And looks the whole world in the face
For he owes not any man.
Week in, week out, from morn till night,
You can hear his bellows blow;
You can hear him swing his heavy sledge,
With measured beat and slow,
Like a sexton ringing the village bell,
When the evening sun is low.
And children coming home from school
Look in at the open door;
They love to see the flaming furge,
And hear the bellows roar,
And catch the burning sparks that fly
Like chaff from a threshing floor.
He goes on Sunday to the church
and sits among his boys;
He hears the parson pray and preach.
He hears his daughter's voice
singing in the village choir,
And it makes his heart rejoice.
It sounds to him like her mother's voice,
Singing in Paradise!
He needs must think of her once more,
How in the grave she lies;
And with his hard, rough hand he wipes
A tear out of his eyes.
Toiling,--rejoicing,--sorrowing,
Onward through life he goes;
Each morning sees some task begin,
Each evening sees it close;
Something attempted, something done,
Has earned a night's repose.
Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend
For the lesson thou hast taught!
Thus at the flaming forge of life
Our fortunes must be wrought;
Thus on its sounding anvil shaped
Each burning deed and thought!
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
I have found I like both coal & gas for different reasons. Gas is much cleaner but is much easier to get a reducing fire with good blacksmithing coal. Coal will only smoke usually when starting up the fire. The secret to using coal is you are coking the coal to produce the best & hottest fire there is an art to using a coal forge. Charcoal is another story. I never used it much but I have heard it takes a lot more attention as it will go out if the air supply is stopped very long. I have had both coal & gas forges but if I get back into smithing I will probably just use gas. It is getting harder & harder to get good quality coal in my area. There used to be a coal yard in Brazil Indiana that you could get it in 50 Lb. bags or in bulk but they are now closed I hear.
Dave H.