1084 Steel for razors?

I am contemplating giving my first try at making a sweet thick smiling 1/4 hollow sway back but have no metalworking experience other than 7th grade metal shop (got an A though). Looking at getting 1/4" by 1.25" bar and shaping via stock removal.

Been absorbing all I can read. Heard mentions that 1084 steel should be the most beginner friendly steel, but nobody directly mentions actually using it.

To those of you that know, would 1084 really be my best steel to try my first razor with? I have 2 small kids, work, and coach 5 kids hockey teams so this might take a while though.

Thanks.

Are you going to send it off for heat treat? I personally learned first in O1 then 1095 simply because MikeBlue recommended it to me. When a smith like Mike speaks, he has my full attention.

I think that Mike often recommends 1084 now.

There are many good types of steel for razors.
And in part, it depends on what you can get easily.
In europe, 10x steel is not that common. Otoh, O2 is very common, which is impossible to get in the US.
1084 steel is good stuff and it has the advantage that it is very simple in terms of heat treatment.

in the past, for many people they had to choose between 1095 or O1 because they were the 2 most common steel types, and between those, O1 is the easiest for a beginner. For me personally, in Europe I would recommend O2 because it is almost impossible to mess up the heat treatment.

One of the reasons you'll see experienced makers using other types of steel is that different steels have different possibilities, or may be better suited for something specific or are better suited for the type of heat treatment you want to do, etc.

I'm planning to do my own heat treat with a small propane forge. Being new at this and with limited tools and knowledge it sounded like i would be more likely to be successful heat treating 1084.

I am fully prepared that this will take some trial and error and I might end up with some bad blades before I get a good one.

I am preparing a step by step order of operations to post here for comment before I start.

Just curious

How are you quenching the steel? And how are determining the color? (Color or you have something to measure)

From reading I see 3 options at first. Heat to cherry red (by color), heat to just past magnetic (using magnet to test), or use an infrared thermometer (not sure mine goes that high yet).

Plan to quench in 140-150 degree canola oil.

If things go kind of well and it looks like I'll stick with it maybe I'll get a thermocouple, I'm an engineer so I'd rather be able to quantify everything to 10 decimal places.

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Originally Posted by NittanyGator

From reading I see 3 options at first. Heat to cherry red (by color), heat to just past magnetic (using magnet to test), or use an infrared thermometer (not sure mine goes that high yet).

Plan to quench in 140-150 degree canola oil.

If things go kind of well and it looks like I'll stick with it maybe I'll get a thermocouple, I'm an engineer so I'd rather be able to quantify everything to 10 decimal places.

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Beginners often make the mistake of quenching when the steel is dull red.
In reality it is closer to a soft orange.
when you look at the steel color change, you will at first see it starting to glow, and you will see dark shadows crossing the steel surface.
That means phase transition is beginning. At some point the shadows will disappear and the steel turns a nice even orange-ish color.
Keep it there for a couple of minutes, and then quench. You need some soak time, and the color must be even.

If you quench before the shadows have stopped haunting your steel ;) then your blade will only be partially converted to martensite and your hardness will be inconsistent.
Quenching a couple degrees too hot is relatively harmless. Quenching a couple of degrees too cold, and the results will be bad.

Thanks for the responses guys, especially the last one regarding heat treating. That helps alot.

I'm chomping at the bit to try my hand at this, but I have virtually no free time. I blame you guys for infecting me with the bug with your awesome creations, so it's really nice to get your assistance. I think I'm gonna order steel from NJ Steel Baron next week.

I will be asking more questions.

Oh, you have only been scratched by this bug. Once swarf starts flying is when the infection begins...

You really can't go wrong with 1084, ESPECIALLY if you are doing your own HT and don't have an oven. It fairly shallow hardening, but in thinner cross sections, it does not absolutely require the fast quenchant like 1095 nor does it require a good soak at a tightly controlled temperature like O1 does to get that last bit of performance. The classic starting point for 084 is 1500/400. That will give you 61Rc minimum if done right. If you plan to HT in a forge, I would recommend not only a thermocouple but a piece of black iron pipe to use as a muffle.

With the exception of the grind/ blade edge how close do get the rest of the razor to final shape before heat treat? Like should everything else pretty much be exactly how I want it or should I leave some extra metal to clean up after treating?

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Originally Posted by NittanyGator

With the exception of the grind/ blade edge how close do get the rest of the razor to final shape before heat treat? Like should everything else pretty much be exactly how I want it or should I leave some extra metal to clean up after treating?

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In that aspect too, it depends a bit what you are doing and why :D. But when using plain carbon steel like 1084 and use a forge to heat treat, I have found that the rest can have its final shape. In general I finish up to 220 grit, do heat treatment, and then clean up. It's only the blade itself where you need to leave enough thickness to really grind some steel.

Good thread. I'll be watching with interest as i get my forge up and running. Maybe i'll be making a razor sooner than expected!

This seems like it may be a stupid question then, but if i want jimping do i cut them before or after heat treat?

Jimping is done before heat treat, unless you are a masochist.

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Originally Posted by NittanyGator

This seems like it may be a stupid question then, but if i want jimping do i cut them before or after heat treat?

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Before. Drilling, filing, etc are all done before heat treatment.
That said, for some things, where I need a very gentle taper, or mild profile changes, I do those after heat treatment. Because those are things that are subtle, and go better when you remove little bits at a time. Doing that before heat treatment carries the risk of removing too much at once.

But in general, you do everything you can before heat treatment.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

But in general, you do everything you can before heat treatment.

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Right! Every year at Charlie's razor makers meet, it seems like we have at least one person straightening a tang or making some other relatively large adjustment after heat treating! The heat treat is a physical statement of how far along you are in your project. It seems that newbies are in too much of a hurry to reach that level of completion to really consider if they have done all they can before it.

I really wanted to do Charlie's meet this year but for one I cant swing it schedule wise, two I think I'd benefit from actually trying to make a few razors first.

Ordered 3 bars of steel today from Aldo, should be enough to do 18 razors.

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Originally Posted by JDM61

You really can't go wrong with 1084, ESPECIALLY if you are doing your own HT and don't have an oven. It fairly shallow hardening, but in thinner cross sections, it does not absolutely require the fast quenchant like 1095 nor does it require a good soak at a tightly controlled temperature like O1 does to get that last bit of performance. The classic starting point for 084 is 1500/400. That will give you 61Rc minimum if done right. If you plan to HT in a forge, I would recommend not only a thermocouple but a piece of black iron pipe to use as a muffle.

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Why haven't I ever seen any of your makings...or have I just missed them?

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Originally Posted by NittanyGator

I really wanted to do Charlie's meet this year but for one I cant swing it schedule wise, two I think I'd benefit from actually trying to make a few razors first.

Ordered 3 bars of steel today from Aldo, should be enough to do 18 razors.

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Actually, you would be WAY ahead on making this meet than ordering anything to make a razor. Charlies meets have more razorsmiths present than ANY "hammer in" than anywhere I am aware of. There us nothing you could not ask that couldnt not only be answered...but SHOWN.

I understand scheduling conflicts and lack of cashflow better than many...so I get that part.

I know this thread is relatively old, but I'd like to add something. If 1084 can make good razor edges, 80CrV2 certainly can as well and it's even easier to HT than 1084. Can be austenized from 1500°f to 1575°f. The vanadium also helps to keep the grain size in check. I use almost exclusively this steel along with W2(I use for hamons) for knives.