Blade Steel types for razors

Ok, so I am seriously considering getting into making blades. I think I would be able to do it for the most part right now with the right equipment besides heat treating which I just know nothing about. I'll post on that later...

Anyway, my question is this: I have been looking at steel bar stock for knifemaking on knife sites and really just don't know the difference between a lot of them. I have seen 440C, ATS34, CPM 154CM and S30V, Tool Steel and Forging Steel among others. What are all of the differences? What is suitable for a razor? How do you go about choosing between Carbon and Stainless? Which of these are Carbon? lol As you can see, I'll probably have a lot of questions coming up. I'd prefer people answer only if they really know what they are talking about rather than "I think this is...". So thanks for reading and I look forward to the responses!

Alex,

I think I'm about halfway into the "knows what he's talking about category..." :)

Hopefully Joe C will show up to talk about stainless, because that's out of my range of experience.

Carbon steels are more flexible in terms of what you can do with them. You can't really forge stainless, although there are a few who do. Carbon steels can usually be heat treated with simple equipment, while stainless steels need complex heat treating. Most of the stainless knife guys send their stuff out for professional heat treatment.

Obviously, stainless is less rust prone. It also has different edge holding properties. That's about all I can do there. :)

Forging steel, as far as I know, is usually a carbon or tool steel that is sold in bars or rounds that are suitable for forging, but not really for grinding or "stock removal." It might also mean blacksmith-quality steel, which is low or medium carbon and not suitable for blades.

Carbon steel usually connotes a very simple alloy of carbon and iron, often with some maganese thrown in to help the hardening process along. Tool steels are also high carbon, but they have other alloy metals added to give them special properties. O1 has chromium, which I think is meant to slow the hardening process a bit.

Carbon steels have an alloy number in the format of 10XX. The 10 means plain carbon steel, and the XXs will be replaced by a number that indicates the carbon content. For example, 1080 has .8 percent carbon. A low-carbon steel might be in the 1020 range.

Tool steels have their own classification using letters and numbers. O1 means "oil hardening type 1." There are other series, like A for air hardening and D for... something. :)

If you want to make a few blades, I'd recommend 1080, W1 or O1. All are good steels and will make nice knives or razors.

Josh

Thanks Josh. That starts a nice explanation for me. Do you use bar for stock removal? That's basically what I think I'd get into for now. I'm having a tough time finding carbon steel stock bars though. Stainless is on all the knife supplies places, but that's most of what I can find besides Forging steel. I found O1 which I actually knew about since I read your thread about it.

from what i recall you would want to use nothing 1060 or less
but anything bigger 10XX wise should be fine

the key here being know your heat treat info ok steel with great heat treat is still good
but super steel with poor heat treat still sucks

i ll be using W2 for my high carbon razers but have used many other more "high tec" steels that just would not work for this app.(cpm10V rings a bell )

I am curious about steel too and I found some good info here in this knife forums steel FAQ..

I've been having great experiences with 1095 lately. Got mine form Admiral Steel, very reasonably priced and it gets hard as heck with a water quench.

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

I have seen 440C, ATS34, CPM 154CM and S30V

Which of these are Carbon?

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All of these are stainless.

Pretty good information, so I'll just add a bit about stainless. I really don't recommend anything other than the CPM steels for razors. They have a finer grain structure than the "normally" produced stainless tool steels, which usually translates into easier honing, greater edge retention, and more flexibility, as well as better finishing characteristics. You get less carbide segregation and banding with the CPM steels, since each grain of the steel is, in theory, a perfect copy of the whole. Any of the ones you mentioned will make good razors, with the exception of S30V (This is just my opinion, based on my experience with that steel). S30V tends to be very brittle and chippy in thin sections like a razor's edge, and good luck getting other than a nice satin finish on it. It's good for knives, which have a much heavier edge by comparison, but I don't like it for razors. Definitely not a beginner's steel, or a steel for anyone without very good equipment, as it's very tough to work with. A dead soft bar of S30V will turn the teeth of a brand new hacksaw blade.

Frankly, good carbon steel bar stock is probably the way to go. It's much less expensive and much easier to grind. You don't need to forge it, as forging really doesn't improve the steel...it just changes the shape. Forging is a much more economical (if labor intensive and chancy if you're new and don't know what you're doing) method of blade shaping, as you waste less steel, but in the end, all blademaking comes down to stock removal. The only way forging really improves steel is if you're working it down from very large stock, such as 3-inch ball bearings, a la Ed Fowler. I just wanted to add this to correct this seemingly widespread misconception about the relative benefits of forging vs. stock removal. Some guys see "forged" and automatically assume it denotes superiority. The thing is, all flat bar steel is forged about as much as it needs to be when it's rolled out into plates at the mill. Forging allows a person to make pattern welded steel, and to use steel from different sources (such as vehicle leaf springs...usually 5160 steel, which makes a darn near indestructible knife if heat treated properly, with good but not great edge holding properties), but doesn't automatically denote a superior blade. I certainly admire those who forge their blades...I used to do it myself. But I realized that for what I wanted a knife to do, stainless was just as good, and as Josh so rightly put it, stainless isn't a good forging candidate. I like carbon steel a lot, as well, and use some, but it's not my primary steel. I wish wootz and pattern welded were, but since I don't make it, that's an expensive proposition.:D

In short, call a supplier like Admiral, Crucible, or any of the knifemaker supply houses and get you some 1095 and O1 bar stock. It's fairly economical, you know what you've got to work with, and if you accidentally get a blade right, you'll have a good razor at the end of the process, made out of good material.

Good luck,
Joe

Joe's summary can stand by itself without comment.

Start with the "Old and unfashionable" steels. They are less expensive but still make great blades. That way you won't be out a bunch of money if you make a mess of the practice jobs.

Mike

I agree with Joe's comments, too, particularly about forging. I think there's some romance in it, but the guys who know their stuff seem to agree that it doesn't make for a superior blade.

Like Mike says, "All steel is forged. If you heat it up and pitty-pat an edge on it, that's just more forging." :)

Josh

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Pretty good information, so I'll just add a bit about stainless. I really don't recommend anything other than the CPM steels for razors. They have a finer grain structure than the "normally" produced stainless tool steels, which usually translates into easier honing, greater edge retention, and more flexibility, as well as better finishing characteristics. You get less carbide segregation and banding with the CPM steels, since each grain of the steel is, in theory, a perfect copy of the whole. Any of the ones you mentioned will make good razors, with the exception of S30V (This is just my opinion, based on my experience with that steel). S30V tends to be very brittle and chippy in thin sections like a razor's edge, and good luck getting other than a nice satin finish on it. It's good for knives, which have a much heavier edge by comparison, but I don't like it for razors. Definitely not a beginner's steel, or a steel for anyone without very good equipment, as it's very tough to work with. A dead soft bar of S30V will turn the teeth of a brand new hacksaw blade.

Frankly, good carbon steel bar stock is probably the way to go. It's much less expensive and much easier to grind. You don't need to forge it, as forging really doesn't improve the steel...it just changes the shape. Forging is a much more economical (if labor intensive and chancy if you're new and don't know what you're doing) method of blade shaping, as you waste less steel, but in the end, all blademaking comes down to stock removal. The only way forging really improves steel is if you're working it down from very large stock, such as 3-inch ball bearings, a la Ed Fowler. I just wanted to add this to correct this seemingly widespread misconception about the relative benefits of forging vs. stock removal. Some guys see "forged" and automatically assume it denotes superiority. The thing is, all flat bar steel is forged about as much as it needs to be when it's rolled out into plates at the mill. Forging allows a person to make pattern welded steel, and to use steel from different sources (such as vehicle leaf springs...usually 5160 steel, which makes a darn near indestructible knife if heat treated properly, with good but not great edge holding properties), but doesn't automatically denote a superior blade. I certainly admire those who forge their blades...I used to do it myself. But I realized that for what I wanted a knife to do, stainless was just as good, and as Josh so rightly put it, stainless isn't a good forging candidate. I like carbon steel a lot, as well, and use some, but it's not my primary steel. I wish wootz and pattern welded were, but since I don't make it, that's an expensive proposition.:D

In short, call a supplier like Admiral, Crucible, or any of the knifemaker supply houses and get you some 1095 and O1 bar stock. It's fairly economical, you know what you've got to work with, and if you accidentally get a blade right, you'll have a good razor at the end of the process, made out of good material.

Good luck,
Joe

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and if you don't know what your doing at the forge you can reallyl hurt the steel
try that on a grinder (white hot and sparking :) )
right now i know im more prone to mess ups at the forge then i am on the grinder so im going to have a JS (testing MS this year ) help make sure i got it right

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Originally Posted by L R Harner

and if you don't know what your doing at the forge you can reallyl hurt the steel
try that on a grinder (white hot and sparking :) )
right now i know im more prone to mess ups at the forge then i am on the grinder so im going to have a JS (testing MS this year ) help make sure i got it right

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Too hot is an issue, as is too cold. If the steel gets too cold while you're hammering it, it can develop cracks that'll cause heartbreak when you quench the blade later... :)

Overheating is more of a problem with coal than gas. I'm using a small gas forge, and I can't even get to welding temps, much less sparking.

Josh

i plan on a gass set up too when i can get the space in the shop for it
but any how lots of different ways to mess the steel up a bit

so get known steel learn all you can about it and take your time :)
maybe a list of razor steels might be helpfull
list not in order and not the end all be all

W1
W2
O1
52100
1065-1095
cpm154
abel sp?

any one care to add i know i missed a few and some are better then others but this might get the ball rolling

That's a pretty good list. Has anyone tried the ever-popular 5160?

I'd add L6 to the list as well. Tim Zowada uses it in his pattern-welded blades.

I've read that 52100 is another steel, like O1, that requires more sophisticated temperature control during heat treatment to get the most out of the steel. I have no personal experience with it, though.

Josh

i was planning on going to 52100 but found a good source of W2 (40lb) for now that will be my razor stock

now this said i have a computer controlled kiln and LN dewer and parks 50 for my heat treating needs so im not real worried about times and temps just so long as i know what there to be (or get me in the ball park)

guess the next step after the steel list is to share the heat treats that work

I can definitely agree that 52100 is picky about it's heat treating temps. I bought a billet of damascus that had a few layer of 52100 in it and the blades just never got as hard as I wanted. Don't know what I did wrong.

what do you use for quench and what temp did you quench from. thats the big 2 trouble shooing not gettign hard

now that said do you know for sure what the Damascus has in it (some have been known to have too much lower carbon and nothing can save that ) was it a well known maker or a maker you trust
case in point i was at a show and a table just down from me had stacks of Damascus but he would not tell any one what was in it. latter found out 2nd hand that he was using too much low carbon and while great fro guards and bolsters (just not blade steel)

52100 requires a higher austenitizing temperature to get all the carbon into solution.

See here: http://www.ovako.com/Data/r2283/v1/P...ation_803Q.pdf

While they use their "brand name" this sheet is for equivalent to 52100 steel.

I'll reiterate, 52100 is tricky.

The way I understand it, lower-carbon alloys need higher temps and some soaking to get all the carbon possible into solution. For example, 5160 only has .60 percent carbon, which is on the low end for a blade steel. You need to get all that carbon working for you. With 1095, which has .95 percent carbon, you don't necessarily need to worry about dissolving the maximum amount of carbon to get full hardness.

Steel, incidentally, can only hold about .85 percent carbon. More than that and you end up with the carbon segretating itself out into carbides. So if you hear anyone talking about how they doubled the carbon content for better hardness, they probably don't know what they're talking about.

Josh

The vendor gave me a list of the component steel alloys, but I don't remember all of them, about 5 or 6 different kinds.

My forging setup is rather low tech, and I use the magnet trick for determining heat treat temps, so that is probably a good portion of the problem. But I followed the maker's instructions and he didn't stress the need for exacting temp control.

Either way, I've pretty much stuck to simple carbon steels for the most part, and haven't had much trouble so I suppose that's the best route for me currently.

(I should have a cool knew project to share next week... inspired by the land of the rising sun)

The 5xxx series, which includes 5160 and 52100 have chromium in them. Chrome is notorious as a carbide former. But, the excess carbon/carbides will dissolve if you're at the right temperature and anticipate soaking a little longer than might be normal for say a 10XX steel. That way you can get maximum performance out of a tricksy steel because you're quenching from maximum carbon input rather than partial.

Those pesky little minor alloying elements don't have to be present in large quantities to make big effects. Steel is a good teacher. Sometimes good teachers are pains in the butt-ocks.

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

The 5xxx series, which includes 5160 and 52100 have chromium in them. Chrome is notorious as a carbide former. But, the excess carbon/carbides will dissolve if you're at the right temperature and anticipate soaking a little longer than might be normal for say a 10XX steel. That way you can get maximum performance out of a tricksy steel because you're quenching from maximum carbon input rather than partial.

Those pesky little minor alloying elements don't have to be present in large quantities to make big effects. Steel is a good teacher. Sometimes good teachers are pains in the butt-ocks.

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O1 is another one with some chromium, which kind of ties this thread in with another discussion we've been having. :)

Josh

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

Thanks Josh. That starts a nice explanation for me. Do you use bar for stock removal? That's basically what I think I'd get into for now. I'm having a tough time finding carbon steel stock bars though. Stainless is on all the knife supplies places, but that's most of what I can find besides Forging steel. I found O1 which I actually knew about since I read your thread about it.

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Start with a simple high carbon steel 1075 or higher in the 10xx series, or W1 I love W1 for my carving tools, it responds a lot like 1095. simple water quenching steels will be easier to use than exotics (stainless) for the beginner.

Have anyone tried AEB-L? It's supposed to have a fine grain and is said be for cutting applications e.g. knives, razorblades and scalpels (sounds ideal for what we are doing, doesn't it?):

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UHB Stainless AEB-L offers sharpenability and edge retention that satisfies extremely demanding requirements. UHB Stainless AEB–L is a hardenable stainless steel with an ideal chemical composition that ensures good results in blade production.

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Also found this:

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1905 - The first cold rolling mill was ready for production, first deliveries to Gillette, USA

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(It's not about AEB-L but about Uddeholm strip steel. Cool to see they used Swedish steel :D)

AEB-L is the Uddeholm equivalent of 12C27 from Sandvik. Forgeable stainless steels and very good for knives/razors I would suspect.

Is there a reason razor makers don't use commonly use 440?

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Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

Is there a reason razor makers don't use commonly use 440?

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I have looked around a bit and found that 440C/AEB-L/12C27 are considered to have very good "edge holding" proprties. I don't know the reason why they aren't used for razors.

The 440 series has typified the problem with either a blade is too hard and not tough enough, or too tough and not hard enough. I've seen vastly more broken 440 series steel blades in my life than any other steel and especially in thin blades. Either way it also got a reputation as hard to sharpen.

To answer one of his questions... just purchase some flat bar stock steel, 1/4" x 1" or 1 1/4". I purchased 1095 stel from Admiral and from 3 6ft lengths I cut 30 7" razor blanks a few days ago.
The heat treating for 1095 is a bit picky and do not use water as a quench or you will learn what a cracking blade sounds like.:rant: Use a fast oil as a quench. I will be posting about how Parks 50 quenching oil works in the near future.

I finally finished building my grinders and now have them at home. Now to set up my workshop here and finish grinding some razors I started last year!:)

Randy,

You'll love the Parks 50. It has made heat-treating seem rather uneventful, which is good but a little boring... :) There are no flame-ups and very little smoke. It almost seems more like rinsing the blade off than quenching it. Cracking has been a non-issue so far for me.

Josh

i have parks 50 also and it great stuff. i cover all my oil hardening stuff (slow oil steels i interrupt the quench) that and the Al plates for quench of air harding steels is mostly uneventful

tho i did warp 2 razors the other day in 1095

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Originally Posted by randydance062449

The heat treating for 1095 is a bit picky and do not use water as a quench or you will learn what a cracking blade sounds like.:rant: Use a fast oil as a quench.

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While a fast oil is solid advice, heated water is not out of the question. I've only broken one out of ten razors made of 1095 that were quenched in water. And in fact the one that broke, should not have, it was my fault.

But then again, I leave a little more material on the edge so that they have a better chance of surviving, I just have to spend an extra 5 minutes grinding that little excess off which isn't a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

While a fast oil is solid advice, heated water is not out of the question. I've only broken one out of ten razors made of 1095 that were quenched in water. And in fact the one that broke, should not have, it was my fault.

But then again, I leave a little more material on the edge so that they have a better chance of surviving, I just have to spend an extra 5 minutes grinding that little excess off which isn't a big deal.

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You can't be saying just plain ol' heated water, can you? Brine, I can see, but plain water would allow the creation of a vapor jacket around the blade, slowing down the quench and rendering it ineffective for a steel like 1095 that needs a near immediate quench. I think you have something like 1 second to get it cooled off from quenching temperature or it won't get fully hard.

Yes, I mean plain water. For 1095 you have ~1 second to get the blade down under ~900 degrees and much more time than is necessary to get it down to room temp. With my current procedure the exposed portion of the blade stops sizzling in the water within .5 to 1 second, the back of the blade follows at around 4 seconds (clay treatment).

I've yet to have a blade come out of the water any softer than a file, and they break like glass if hit with a hammer (did this on a test piece of 1095 put through my usual forging, normalizing, heat treating cycle, before tempering).

Salts and surfactants are sometimes necessary for lower carbon content steels, but it is not uncommon to use plain water for the higher carbon versions.

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Yes, I mean plain water. For 1095 you have ~1 second to get the blade down under ~900 degrees and much more time than is necessary to get it down to room temp. With my current procedure the exposed portion of the blade stops sizzling in the water within .5 to 1 second, the back of the blade follows at around 4 seconds (clay treatment).

I've yet to have a blade come out of the water any softer than a file, and they break like glass if hit with a hammer (did this on a test piece of 1095 put through my usual forging, normalizing, heat treating cycle, before tempering).

Salts and surfactants are sometimes necessary for lower carbon content steels, but it is not uncommon to use plain water for the higher carbon versions.

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You learn something new every day. If you say it works for you, I certainly can't dispute it.

some good information here. the only thing i didn't see about choosing a blade steel to make knives with is wether you planned on heat treating the steel yourself or have someone else do it. If you plan on heat treating it yourself and don't have a good oven yet then stay away from stainless. Carbon steel can be heat treated at home with very little money compared to stainless if your not going to go buy salt pots, or ln dewer's. If you want to quench in oil and do it the old fasioned way carbon would be the way to go. Then you have to figure in your wallet and see what's in your budget for steel types realizing that the more exotic alloys cost more, not just in intial cost, but also in belts and other equipment to work it. Even if you don't have a good oven yet you can still work the stainless and send it off to be heat treated by people like paul boss, until you get your own oven.

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Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

. but plain water would allow the creation of a vapor jacket around the blade, slowing down the quench and rendering it ineffective for a steel like 1095 that needs a near immediate quench.

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It's worthwhile to discuss the vapor jacket problem. It might cause a large piece of steel, say bowie knife sized, to have just enough of a delay that the heat treatment could be uneven (non uniform). But with the conversion of martensite from austenite running at the speed of sound (Verhoeven), when compared with a half to one second, as Russell points out "when it stops sizzling", the vapor jacket phase is very slow. The martensite's already done despite the bubbles. And unlikely to be much of an influence in a razor sized section of steel because there is significantly less mass to cool down across a much thinner section.

Even oils will have vapor jackets from the oil burning and flashing into smoke and they are considered slower quenches than water. Nobody seems to worry about the problem in an oil bath, but it keeps coming up with water because if the timing is right, there could be an influence.