Anyone tried exotic metals?

I'm curious if anyone's tried exotic metals for razors. My current fancy is Nickel-based alloys, particularly Nickel-Silver/German Silver Steel (Nickel-Copper-Zinc), which is cheaply available. Apparently the stuff resists plastic deformation (i.e. the edge should hold, even if quite fine) and is fairly hard and corrosion resistant.

A nickel-titanium or nickel-tungsten alloy would be interesting too... I believe nickel-tungsten is a replacement for chrome plating, and roughly 10 times more durable than chrome in that use. But if we keep following this thought path we'll wind up with superalloys that nobody here can hone (they'll chew your hone into tiny, tiny bits), Inconel being my favorite....

I believe the "ideal" hardness is somewhere in the mid-low 60's on the tempered hardness side of things from what I have read from some of the guys who are actually making razors...I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. This is where the happy medium is at, not too hard & brittle, not too soft, & won't eat up $100's in stones. There is all kind of fascinating stuff out there now, much less the future like carbon-carbon, ceramics, and so on...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I believe the "ideal" hardness is somewhere in the mid-low 60's

---

I think 62-63 on the Rockwell's scale is ideal; though, I don't think carbon steel can be made harder than 65, ever. Not sure what the Vickers hardness is supposed to be, but 60 is the softest carbon steel you'll get on that scale and 120 is the hardest.

EDIT: Well, according to Wikipedia, 62 Rockwell would be 110 Vickers; and 130 Vickers would be 72 Rockwell, so yeah we're talking fairly hard stuff here.

I don't know if ATS-34 or S-30V would qualify as 'exotic' nowadays ( they used to be) but I've got one of the former by Bill Ellis and two of the latter by Robert Williams and they are great shavers.

there are some interesting exotic titanium alloys that are used for high performance engine parts and some interesting ceramic alloys as well but i think you would need diamond plates to hone a razor made out of them

also i once saw a razor made out of temped glass its actually what started my drive to get one of my own and a razor i hope to try and replicate when i get my garage clear and a workshop set up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazzardstar

there are some interesting exotic titanium alloys that are used for high performance engine parts and some interesting ceramic alloys as well but i think you would need diamond plates to hone a razor made out of them

also i once saw a razor made out of temped glass its actually what started my drive to get one of my own and a razor i hope to try and replicate when i get my garage clear and a workshop set up

---

So, you'd need DMTs? :)

Actually, some exotic titanium alloys used for engine parts are probably exotic nickel alloys with titanium content (because TITANIUM! ... nobody cares about nickel) ... the titanium is important, but it's the nickel that makes or breaks the alloy (even though it's probably 10%-30%, and that's generous). Of course, this includes Inconel-- which, getting to my point, has a tendency to work harden. So the more you machine (i.e. sharpen) it, the harder it gets; eventually it's far too hard to put a fine edge on, least without a really hard hone... maybe a Spyderco.

A glass razor would be extremely interesting but very difficult to do. Sapphire or quartz might be reasonable.

i rember seeing a set of valve spring that were titanium nickel and one of the rare earth metal had a odd olive green tinge to them. yea person that owned the glass razor said it held a finer edge than any other razor she owned but it wasn't for the inexperienced. in her own words it was very scary sharp and you can imagine the damage if you tap it against something

There's that old saying about why go looking for trouble. The old tried and true materials seem to work best for razors and that's why they still use them. Sure you can probably make a Tallonite razor or one made from 100% Tungsten but why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

There's that old saying about why go looking for trouble. The old tried and true materials seem to work best for razors and that's why they still use them. Sure you can probably make a Tallonite razor or one made from 100% Tungsten but why?

---

Why bother with working out Basic oxygen steelmaking when the bessemer converter did a truly fantastic job on an economically viable industrial scale?

Even a Gold Dollar #66 is made of better material than what we had in 1880 I'd wager. Sure it's not modern-process Swedish steel; and Swedish steel back then was way better than German steel; but Swedish steel back then was not what Swedish steel is now, either. We have a more consistent, more controlled refinement process than simple puddling; the carbon content is much more consistent, and the impurities are removed much more efficiently. Further, alloy levels are adjusted for consistency based on metallurgical analysis; this batch of steel might not have so much tungsten, but we can always add that.

At the very least, even the lower grade steel used on a cheap Chinese razor is BOS purified, with most impurities removed, and without a huge and detrimental carbon content. Higher grade steels used in Solingen made razors and in razors made anywhere out of high-grade Swedish steel are more closely monitored for impurities, and have their carbon content precisely controlled; and in most cases have alloying metals consistently adjusted for consistency based on known and desirable properties of the final steel alloy.

How marketable are fine steel straight razors on innovative new processes and materials? How many Damascus blades get sold?

a true Damascus steel razor would be nice last time i checked on it tho the process is still lost to the modern world. note i don't mean that pattern welded stuff we have these days i mean the old stuff that was discovered to have nano wire structures in it allowing it to take on a fantastically sharp and stable edge . i think this is where exotic metals will go in the very near future with nano scale processes almost growing the metal for the task its set to perform thats what i call truly exotic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazzardstar

a true Damascus steel razor would be nice last time i checked on it tho the process is still lost to the modern world. note i don't mean that pattern welded stuff we have these days

---

Just IME the pattern welded stuff we have today is beautiful and shaves great. At least the ones that I have bought. It would be nice to have the 'true' Damascus of legend but since I'm only shaving and not taking my razors into mortal combat I'm satisfied with what I have.:)

i don't get me wrong given the opportunity to acquire a new Damascus razor i wouldn't say no :). legends do have somewhat of a draw tho don't they one of the things that draws people to straight razors i think

has any one done a "star iron" razor by that i mean meteorite metal i have seen a couple of knifes made of it and its just stunning

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazzardstar

a true Damascus steel razor would be nice last time i checked on it tho the process is still lost to the modern world. note i don't mean that pattern welded stuff we have these days i mean the old stuff that was discovered to have nano wire structures in it allowing it to take on a fantastically sharp and stable edge . i think this is where exotic metals will go in the very near future with nano scale processes almost growing the metal for the task its set to perform thats what i call truly exotic

---

There was some theorization that it might have accidentally formed carbon nanotubes in process.

Damascus Steel is Wootz steel stock that's been forged at a specific high temperature (which I can't recall at this time) and then cooled, at which point it becomes patterned based on the carbides contained in it. Then it's tempered at a high temperature (which I also can't recall), which doesn't liquefy the metal but does cause the pattern to vanish. Then again tempered at a lower temperature, which re-liquefies the carbides and causes them to reform darker, causing the exact same pattern to re-emerge.

Something about a lost process? I can get the numbers later if you want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazzardstar

i don't get me wrong given the opportunity to acquire a new Damascus razor i wouldn't say no :). legends do have somewhat of a draw tho don't they one of the things that draws people to straight razors i think

has any one done a "star iron" razor by that i mean meteorite metal i have seen a couple of knifes made of it and its just stunning

---

Tim Zowada made a meteorite razor with ivory scales that went for something like $2500.00 IIRC. There is a thread on the topic somewhere. As I said when I saw it on Classic's website, that razor would have to shave 'out of this world'. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluefoxicy

I think 62-63 on the Rockwell's scale is ideal; though, I don't think carbon steel can be made harder than 65, ever. Not sure what the Vickers hardness is supposed to be, but 60 is the softest carbon steel you'll get on that scale and 120 is the hardest.

EDIT: Well, according to Wikipedia, 62 Rockwell would be 110 Vickers; and 130 Vickers would be 72 Rockwell, so yeah we're talking fairly hard stuff here.

---

The as-quenched hardness of 1095 can be as high as 66 Rc. And "ideal hardness" is a matter of preference, but 58-61 seems to be the best compromise for most steels between edge holding and toughness. 62-63 is far too hard for most steels to function without being very chippy. Some old Sheffield razors were as "soft" as 55-56 Rc. Granted, a razor is a single use item (unless you count the anecdotal uses prostitutes put them to), so you can probably get away with a bit more hardness, but what have you gained if you do? You may gain a bit of edge holding, but this will be offset by brittleness, which will manifest itself on the hone by constantly chipping out (see Heribert Wacker's razors for a perfect example of this phenomenon) should the slightest irregularity in your hone manifest itself (and it will), as well as increased difficulty honing. From experience, I'll say the chippiness problem can be mitigated somewhat by using natural hones (Tam O' Shanters, Coticules, etc.) which cut much slower (in general), but most of us don't have those, do we? This fascination with high hardness steel is overrated, and you need to concentrate much more on the "working hardness" of the steel you're contemplating. Hardness alone is not the most important factor in judging a steel. For example, AUS6 will take one of the finest edges you're likely to find in a conventionally produced steel, but it won't hold it very long. D2, on the other hand, will take a crappy, aggressive edge, and hold it an inordinate amount of time. Which do you want to put on your face? You have to judge all the attributes of a steel, not just how hard it is. Particularly for a razor, what you want to look for is a steel that has a very fine grain structure (fine grain, simplistically=fine edge, sharpness), toughness (the human male facial hair has approximately the same tensile strength as copper wire), and machinability (can you sharpen the thing?) What good is the ability to take an Excalibur edge if you can't hone it, particularly without it chipping out?

I have to agree with Joe here. People love Sheffield razors, and I've long had a theory that the "Sheffield smoothness" is a result of the softer steel. The harder razors I've tried have tended to be harsher on my girly skin. :)

My general philosophy is that I'd rather target the hardness where it's easy for most guys to maintain rather than have a super hard blade that's really tough to get right. Even if the harder edge is marginally sharper and will last longer, most people will never develop the skill level to keep a razor like that functioning.

I guess it's like reading popular fiction vs. "literature." Critics may turn up their noses at Stephen King, but the enjoyment most people get out of a best seller is greater than what they'd get from the latest avant garde literary genius who sells 1,200 copies of his book.

Josh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bluefoxicy

Even a Gold Dollar #66 is made of better material than what we had in 1880 I'd wager.

---

Not quite.

Back in those days, the quality of steel really mattered because people had to try and make tools with them even more than today. Take a Joseph rodgers razor: that steel was made from high quality carbon steel. Even my 1830s John Barber razor was made from high quality carbon steel.

I won't go so far as to say this was true for all uses of steel, but when it comes to razors, I don't think many people will argue that the average GD has better steel than an averag 150 year old W&B

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazzardstar

a true Damascus steel razor would be nice last time i checked on it tho the process is still lost to the modern world. note i don't mean that pattern welded stuff we have these days i mean the old stuff that was discovered to have nano wire structures in it allowing it to take on a fantastically sharp and stable edge . i think this is where exotic metals will go in the very near future with nano scale processes almost growing the metal for the task its set to perform thats what i call truly exotic

---

These days it's called 'wootz'.
It is not lost anymore. They reason it got lost at a certain point in time is that it requires specific trace elements in the ore in order to make it. When the ore ran out, there was no more wootz production, and the production processes were lost one generation later because they weren't passed on anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hazzardstar

a true Damascus steel razor would be nice last time i checked on it tho the process is still lost to the modern world. note i don't mean that pattern welded stuff we have these days i mean the old stuff that was discovered to have nano wire structures in it allowing it to take on a fantastically sharp and stable edge . i think this is where exotic metals will go in the very near future with nano scale processes almost growing the metal for the task its set to perform thats what i call truly exotic

---

It's not exactly "lost", but it is rare. There is only one steelmaker I'm aware producing the material that has actually been certified as equivalent to the historical wootz. That man is Alfred Pendray. That's not to say he's the only man making wootz; his is just the only steel so certified. I know this because (shameless plug here) I've made razors from it. And yes, it's great stuff. I've been lucky enough to be able to obtain some on rare occasions. I've also made razors from Rick Furrer's wootz, and it works exceptionally well, too. So yeah...you CAN have a "true damascus" razor, even today. :D

Joe, it's good to see you in print again.

And for those that don't know you, you sound entirely different in print than you do on the phone. ;) :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Joe, it's good to see you in print again.

And for those that don't know you, you sound entirely different in print than you do on the phone. ;) :)

---

I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or not :D. Most of the time I prefer writing, as it allows me to distill my thoughts and focus them, whereas my conversations tend to be free-form exercises in rabbit-catching or ball bearing herding. :rofl2:

Exotic metals implies exotic hones!

Having said that the availability of diamond
down to 0.25 micron sort of eliminates
that as an issue. It does not address
replacements for leather strops.

True Damascus was full of exotic carbides
especially vanadium carbides.
The bottom of this link has some "hardness"
data that tells me that vanadium carbides are
way up there.

Material Hardness, Grid Grading System

The presence of boron and titanium are interesting because
borax is sometimes used as a flux for welding steel and titanium is
common in many magnetic black sand separations. Salts
in welding flux generate some exotic case hardening effects
too.

Back to "exotic metals implies exotic hones!" this may
be the key reason that ceramic knives are so hit and miss
in the market today. However they are available and
could be reground (with some care) into a form that
would let one explore it as a razor. Twice tempted... zaykastore.com
kyoceraadvancedceramics.com