Making a living..

I was going to message a few people privately to ask this but I figured that more than myself might be interested. I was curious as to how many if any make their living as a razor maker. This comes mostly from hanging out here and B&B and seeing some of the work put out by people.

The two that stuck out to me were Charlie Lewis and Alex Jacques. Not that there are not other's just as talented these are just the ones I've come across first and wondered "Do they do this for a living?" and if so how did you get there.

I see work that inspires me and am always curious about the backround of that work.

If this is in the wrong forum sorry, I just figured since it had to do with razor makers this would be the best spot.

thanks
Bruce

Nope,

Charlie

I think if one was to try and make a living making custom razors alone,one would starve to death.

It's a pretty simple formula

1. Get a really good paying dayjob, or,
2. Have had a really good dayjob with a great pension, retirement plan, trust fund, or,
3. Win the lottery, then,
4. Make razors until the money is all gone.

Christ sakes Mike I am still laughing at that one...

Think of it this way, to make a living at it you have to move a large volume of razors. If your doing something that is different every time there is no volume...lol.
If someone was a "mini" Dovo and use one style and could have those blanks cut/stamped/waterjet/whatever...... Then you may be able to work it but it was still be a struggle at best.

Hey Bruce,

I am not a razor maker although I am dying to make one from scratch. I do make my living from what I make and things I engrave. As a long time self employed artisan-craftsman here is what I see.

There are plenty of people out there who are plenty good enough. There are some extremely talented people on here. Being good at what you do and being a hard worker is not enough. You also need a market that is large enough to support full time craftsmen. Along with being large enough, that market has to have a large enough percentage of its folks who appreciate the artistry alongside function. The straight razor market just isn't that big ..... Yet. Will it ever be maybe, maybe not. But from what I see it seems to be growing in popularity.

From what I see, the custom Razor market is where the custom knife market was in the late 70s. There are several quality craftsman out there but the only place they get exposure is in a fairly closed loop of folks already interested in SRs. Once the knifemakers stepped out of their group and knifemaking started getting exposure in the public market it took off and that market has steadily been compounding since about the mid 80s. Now there are several custom knife related forums, magazines, custom knives have been featured in movies, etc. Now there are several knifemakers making a full time living off their knives. Many support artist like myself also make their living off that market. About 75% of what I engrave is custom knives. 15% guns and 10% other stuff.

If the razor market ends up growing like the knife market did, someday it will be possible. But now the market is just too small from what I can see.

Let a major celebrity like Russel Crowe or Hugh Jackman make a big deal of using a SR in a movie and it will pique interest. Let that type of thing happen in various venues and who knows what kind of growth it could spur in the razor market.

Ray

Forgot one.. Marry into money..

I was just curious.. I don't really have a good gauge on how big the actual market is. I assume most people buying into the hobby are not looking to spend the cash for a full on custom just to try it out. Then you subtract those that don't stick with it and I guess that does leave a limited pool of people to sell to...

Better yet,come out of a rich womb,or get into one:)
I have a few customs (very few) Tho all users,I look at them as artwork,as such I find it comforting that the artisan that created them may one day become rich and famous and my investment will be worth hundreds of times more than I paid for them.
This will happen with the best of the best for sure,sadley:( as with most artwork,this will happen long after both of us are far into our dirtnaps:)

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Better yet,come out of a rich womb,or get into one:)
I have a few customs (very few) Tho all users,I look at them as artwork,as such I find it comforting that the artisan that created them may one day become rich and famous and my investment will be worth hundreds of times more than I paid for them.
This will happen with the best of the best for sure,sadley:( as with most artwork,this will happen long after both of us are far into out dirtnaps:)

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I came out of a rich womb, but it's been tough finding my way back into one.

Looking at the time needed to make quality razors, the various costs involved, and other things, it is very hard to make ends meet with that as a day job.

The general rule of thumb in Belgium is that as a self employed person, you need 250 euro per day profit in order to make a living. This seems like a lot, but as a self employed person, you need to pay for your own pension fund and other things.

If you make razors, and you can make 1 per day on average, that means 250 profit per razor.
Add material cost, consumables and heat treatment, and you have to make and sell 1 expensive razor every day, just to make ends meet.

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Originally Posted by MileMarker60

Think of it this way, to make a living at it you have to move a large volume of razors. If your doing something that is different every time there is no volume...lol.
If someone was a "mini" Dovo and use one style and could have those blanks cut/stamped/waterjet/whatever...... Then you may be able to work it but it was still be a struggle at best.

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There are several good points that follow mine. Ray has a good handle on it because of what he does for knifemakers and his example of the market for custom knives is excellent. I would say that the same rules are true in the knife world. I know very few who do this without some other form of support. It used to be true that you were no body in the music business until you got your picture on the cover of the Rolling Stone and the blade mags function in the same way. Ray is in a perfect place. When the market for knife engraving dries a little he can flex his business over to other objects in metal and continue to do business. A knifemaker only makes knives.

Once the market likes your blades you have two choices. Either you go very high end and cater to the collectors or you go low end and find an offshore company (Brian's large volume) who will manufacture all those parts of your now famous design and you become a knife assembler. But you won't be able to handcraft the numbers needed to support daily living if you don't. If you go high end and make one or two very expensive items a year, you price yourself out of even wishing range for most people.

The next thing that happens is your designs start showing up on the market without you being able to control the contractor who was the brother-in-law of the guy you have only a little control over. The knife market is also heavily dependent on disposable income. Theoretically you could only use two knives at a time, so you only really need two at most. Beyond that you buy them because you like them and rotate them. But you stop buying when the market is down, or a home project comes up, or at the high end your investments aren't doing so well, something to drain away that little extra for toys.

I suspect these factors apply just as easily to the ebay market when the old razors that the membership here recycles so diligently and effectively. But the prices are rising as well, when the old stocks are being consumed and becoming scarce. Folks grumble about how much the custom jobs cost. And those of us custom guys struggle with not pricing ourselves out of the market but we have to account for the price of everything as Bruno succinctly did the math. Realistically, I've never recovered the cost of the learning curve, the tools or the time.

I really hope the razor market grows. If there was one feature of craftsmanship that I could influence this segment to acquire, I would have the idea of collaborative efforts take a firmer root. All other markets in the world depend on multiple craftsmen/women who become very good at their particular talent. Then they combine to make something really cool. This also means more crafts types can be supported by the market, more families fed. I love making steel and heat treatment. There are a few here grinding those steels and doing the finish work that I don't like much. Someone else could take a blade like that and scale it, not much different than doing a restoration. If I could remember to leave a clean piece for Ray to scribe on, that'd be very cool. The price of each segment of work would remain relatively low but the whole would take on a larger value for the combined best works of us all. The idea of sole authorship is a uniquely American driven problem. I'm not sure it supports a craft as well as a consortium of efforts.

Bruce, I would be wholly encouraging of your desire, but not at the expense of giving you an unrealistic dream either. If you're going to learn this, do it because it's fun and you're going to learn something cool. The rest will make you crazy. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

It's a pretty simple formula

1. Get a really good paying dayjob, or,
2. Have had a really good dayjob with a great pension, retirement plan, trust fund, or,
3. Win the lottery, then,
4. Make razors until the money is all gone.

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So its kinda like the old joke...

How do you make a small fortune in the razor making business?

Start with a large fortune.

I would agree with everything Mike said. I make most of my living in that high end range of the knife market. When the economy went south in 08 I found myself busier than I ever. I even had to raise my prices a little to curb the workload. Even today I am backlogged about a year.

With the overall economy in the tank this made no sense to me. I have a good enough relationship with most of my customers that I can ask financial questions without coming across as rude. So I ask a couple of my customers what was up. They told me that they were not putting as much of their money in the stock market right now because of the uncertainty of tax issues, the markets general weakness, etc. Instead they are putting more of their money into collectibles and artwork. They are stocking up on more guns, custom knives, physical metals, artwork, etc., things they see as having a lasting or increasing value that they can turn around for cash later.

Now whether they are making the right financial decision is a topic for a different discussion but my point is this. Until there is a large enough population of custom razor collectors who view a custom razor as having a collectible value beyond its mere use as a well made tool, it will be very hard to make a living as a custom razor maker. Maybe not impossible, but it would be tough.

Mike's comment about making a decision to go either high or low is spot on. For a good part of this economy the mid price range knife market was hurting. The very low end was doing OK and the very high end was actually thriving but the stuff in the middle was gasping for air. I have been told that section of the market is starting to pick up but for a good while there it was hurting. The reason is the folks who buy in that range are the ones most affected by this economy.

Bruno brought up another good point. You either have to be able to crank razors out at a high rate of production or you need to sell them at a price point where you can make a profit. The knife market has grown enough that I can price my work high enough to make a prophet. At this point in time, my average budget for engraving a knife is around $4k. I have had budgets as high as $10K for engraving a knife. The knife market has grown to the point that it has enough collectors world wide that value the work enough that a really good maker and engraver can demand a high enough price to make a living. I don't beleive the razor market is there yet.

From what I can see the custom razor market is about where the custom fountain pen market is. I have a good friend who is a knifemaker who started making hand made fountain pens a few years ago. David is an excellent artisan and make s fabulous pen. David and I have done some collaborations and made decent money but not enough for that to be his full time job. He still makes the bulk of his income as a custom knifemaker. As more and more people have been exposed to the idea of a handmade pen and it becomes more accepted as a collectible artform David's pen business grew. Hopefully it will continue to grow. WHo knows ten years from now David may have to make a decision as to whether he wants to be a knife maker or a pen maker. But its going to be a while before he is faced with such a decision.

Ray

Wow, some really good advice, thoughts and obvservations posted here. Don't have much to add. I will say there seems to be a desire for many folks to make a living doing what they love to do and of course there are countless benefits in doing so. However, one will find out quickly just how much they really "love" it when they attempt to make a living doing it. Best Regards Ken

One of the things that helped greatly was this very forum, meaning the workshop and later on the forge.
If I compare the amount of information available now and in 2006 when I joined, the difference is staggering. Apart from the volume of data, you can simply tell by the number of relatively inexperienced people who have started to make custom razors.

What Mike described could happen here with enough people interested in just making steel, blades, scales, etc. And even then, the straight razor world is nowhere near ready for that amount of razors. And even if it was, Dovo, Boker and TI would eat our lunch from the low end, and people like Livi would eat into the high end.

We are a long way from the point where razor manufacturing becomes a viable business model again.

Another very important consideration: if you get into the customs business, the business has to come first or you're not eating. To make a parallel: the people surviving in the photography world are not necessarily the best photographers or the best artists. Usually it's the people who focus on making money. And to be fair, it's the only way to survive if you are not world famous.

So if razor making is what you love, and you love the artistic expression of making unique pieces, you would probably not be happy if you had to cut artistic corners, or work on things you might not find interesting.

I would only go into customs making if I won the lottery and I didn't have to care about the money.
Otherwise I would probably be miserable because I was scraping to break even while at the same time working to spec.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

We are a long way from the point where razor manufacturing becomes a viable business model again.

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Do you think this applies to Hart? Are they bucking a trend or are they doomed?

I hope they are in the "niche" and are destined to make it...

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

There are several good points that follow mine. Ray has a good handle on it because of what he does for knifemakers and his example of the market for custom knives is excellent. I would say that the same rules are true in the knife world. I know very few who do this without some other form of support. It used to be true that you were no body in the music business until you got your picture on the cover of the Rolling Stone and the blade mags function in the same way. Ray is in a perfect place. When the market for knife engraving dries a little he can flex his business over to other objects in metal and continue to do business. A knifemaker only makes knives.

Once the market likes your blades you have two choices. Either you go very high end and cater to the collectors or you go low end and find an offshore company (Brian's large volume) who will manufacture all those parts of your now famous design and you become a knife assembler. But you won't be able to handcraft the numbers needed to support daily living if you don't. If you go high end and make one or two very expensive items a year, you price yourself out of even wishing range for most people.

The next thing that happens is your designs start showing up on the market without you being able to control the contractor who was the brother-in-law of the guy you have only a little control over. The knife market is also heavily dependent on disposable income. Theoretically you could only use two knives at a time, so you only really need two at most. Beyond that you buy them because you like them and rotate them. But you stop buying when the market is down, or a home project comes up, or at the high end your investments aren't doing so well, something to drain away that little extra for toys.

I suspect these factors apply just as easily to the ebay market when the old razors that the membership here recycles so diligently and effectively. But the prices are rising as well, when the old stocks are being consumed and becoming scarce. Folks grumble about how much the custom jobs cost. And those of us custom guys struggle with not pricing ourselves out of the market but we have to account for the price of everything as Bruno succinctly did the math. Realistically, I've never recovered the cost of the learning curve, the tools or the time.

I really hope the razor market grows. If there was one feature of craftsmanship that I could influence this segment to acquire, I would have the idea of collaborative efforts take a firmer root. All other markets in the world depend on multiple craftsmen/women who become very good at their particular talent. Then they combine to make something really cool. This also means more crafts types can be supported by the market, more families fed. I love making steel and heat treatment. There are a few here grinding those steels and doing the finish work that I don't like much. Someone else could take a blade like that and scale it, not much different than doing a restoration. If I could remember to leave a clean piece for Ray to scribe on, that'd be very cool. The price of each segment of work would remain relatively low but the whole would take on a larger value for the combined best works of us all. The idea of sole authorship is a uniquely American driven problem. I'm not sure it supports a craft as well as a consortium of efforts.

Bruce, I would be wholly encouraging of your desire, but not at the expense of giving you an unrealistic dream either. If you're going to learn this, do it because it's fun and you're going to learn something cool. The rest will make you crazy. ;)

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Very well said. Look, i've owned 2 companies so far in my 35 years. Both in the tech field so I get all that. And i was no implying that the only reason i started to like this hobby was to make a business out of it.

I went to a small art school for my college, as a jewelry major of all things. I left after 2 years for many reasons but 1 being I didn't see much of a future in it. You either sold out and designed crap for like QVC, you got really really lucky and found a good customer base that likes your work and that is enough to sustain you or you spend most of your time traveling around to art/craft shows. None of those appealed to me.

Although I did have a few friends that made it. in each of those ways. I don't want to give the impression I was looking for a business plan, not even close. It was more of a curiosity thing. You start to hang out in these forums and talk to other razor guys and start to think "well everyone should obviously want one of these" then you realize most people don't even know they exist except in history books.

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Do you think this applies to Hart? Are they bucking a trend or are they doomed?

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I would say Hart falls more in line with my "mini Dovo" theory then a custom maker.
I would hope they have the ability to stay a float. If so, it could be a good sign that straight razor market has the ability to gain a little bit of ground (no mater how small..lol)

I have to say, theeditor's position is one I have contemplated greatly while on SRP: "You start to hang out in these forums and talk to other razor guys and start to think "well everyone should obviously want one of these" then you realize most people don't even know they exist except in history books." And I recognize there are a lot of posts on this topic. However, as applied to this forum topic on making a living from knives or straight razors, I think we are headed toward a period where guys like myself (32 years old) take a step back and ask if the evolution of the razor has been all Gillette has made it out to be in it's marketing. This sentiment bodes well for the straight razor maker/expert honer guys out there. I don't think it's profound or unique to myself. Especially since in almost all other regards I am mainstream middle of the road. I am an attorney, I where argyle, I play a ton of golf, I have season tickets to Husky football... not odd duck stuff really. It may take another five years or so, but I honestly believethis straight razor thing is certainly going to trend up during this decade. Fortunately for me, it doesn't affect me drastically financially one way or the other.

All good points. I think the custom side of this hobby could be used as a way to "supplement" the amount of money a guy has to spend on razors, tools and the like.

Jeff

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Originally Posted by TURNMASTER

All good points. I think the custom side of this hobby could be used as a way to "supplement" the amount of money a guy has to spend on razors, tools and the like.

Jeff

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I think that is very valid at this point in the game. For myself, I want to make a few razors for me. Mostly because I enjoy learning new things and taking on new challenges. That type of activity helps break the tedium of my "regular job". Beyond that if I decided to keep making them I would be happy if it were just a way to support the new hobby. Lord knows I don't need another hobby unless it is somewhat self supporting. :rolleyes:

Ray

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Blue

It's a pretty simple formula

1. Get a really good paying dayjob, or,
2. Have had a really good dayjob with a great pension, retirement plan, trust fund, or,
3. Win the lottery, then,
4. Make razors until the money is all gone.

---

Story of my life-without the winning the lottery, pension, retirement plan, trust fund parts.;)

I made the decision years ago to keep a job to support my habit. The usual reasons-wife, kids, college, health insurance and on and on.
But also I realized early on that as much as liked making blades I was not cut out to get up everyday and do it.

I did not like it as much when it became a job.

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Originally Posted by TURNMASTER

All good points. I think the custom side of this hobby could be used as a way to "supplement" the amount of money a guy has to spend on razors, tools and the like.

Jeff

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That is exactly what I do.
With the exception of the grinder I am now buying, most stuff I buy for the purpose of restoring / making razors has been paid for with the little money coming from razors. That way it does not eat into the household budget.

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Originally Posted by UWPete

I have to say, theeditor's position is one I have contemplated greatly while on SRP: "You start to hang out in these forums and talk to other razor guys and start to think "well everyone should obviously want one of these" then you realize most people don't even know they exist except in history books." And I recognize there are a lot of posts on this topic. However, as applied to this forum topic on making a living from knives or straight razors, I think we are headed toward a period where guys like myself (32 years old) take a step back and ask if the evolution of the razor has been all Gillette has made it out to be in it's marketing. This sentiment bodes well for the straight razor maker/expert honer guys out there. I don't think it's profound or unique to myself. Especially since in almost all other regards I am mainstream middle of the road. I am an attorney, I where argyle, I play a ton of golf, I have season tickets to Husky football... not odd duck stuff really. It may take another five years or so, but I honestly believethis straight razor thing is certainly going to trend up during this decade. Fortunately for me, it doesn't affect me drastically financially one way or the other.

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Exactly. I only got into straights as of last christmas. I got a new dovo. It took me a few weeks to work up the nerve to use it but once I did I loved it. After that it took me a few months to actually start looking at old ones and then to start working on them. Restoring them, doing custom scales etc. Now thinking about blade making. So for me it's relatively new. WHen I started restoring blades I didn't know what to do with the first ones I made. They were not bad but I wouldn't have felt right selling them. SO I gave them to friends. I probably gave out 10. Out of those 10 friends I'd say 6 stuck with it.

The interesting thing about all of them is they knew nothing about straights. Except for the references you see in movies etc. No idea that you could purchase them or even use them.

Out of the 6 that stuck with it I'm currently doing another one for 3 of them, this time its a paying job. I'm just happy that they enjoy it.

I think that most normal people have no idea that they even exist. You say shave and they think some brand name multiple blade thing or a disposable. In the age of advertising a better product does not automatically make a more popular one.

I'ts sad but if someone slaps on the word "green" to a straight lord knows how many people would want one.

Having custom razors become a viable business seems to be an exposure thing. If you ask 50 people I'd wager that 49 of them would have no clue there is even a straight/DE market.

I think you two may be correct. I see a lot of vintage things making a comeback. Tobacco pipes are one example. If SRs could become a trend like cigars did a few years ago. there would be a big flare of people try it and some would stick with it. But your right, for this market to really grow it needs a serious amount of exposure. A couple articles in some of the men's mags would not be a bad idea either.

Ray

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Originally Posted by Danocon

I did not like it as much when it became a job.

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You beat me to this statement. I have experimented with many hobby's and have enjoyed them. When I think about charging for something it becomes "work". It takes a lot of the fun out of it.

Also from my experience with jewelry, the low end of the market is not feasible for an individual. You can't even compete charging for just the material let alone any sort of wage.

Tim

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Originally Posted by 32t

You beat me to this statement. I have experimented with many hobby's and have enjoyed them. When I think about charging for something it becomes "work". It takes a lot of the fun out of it.

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This is the number one reason I do not provide restoration services anymore. I did not have time to work on my own projects anymore, and I felt under obligation to spend time on things, even if it was inconvenient to do so.

Now I am making blades and do some restoration work, but not to order. I just do whatever I want, and when I finish something I use it for a while and then I sell it whenever I feel like it. Much more satisfying, and no pressure.

You guys are right. It can become a job. My engraving started as a hobby many years ago. Then it was a hobby that made a little money. Then I quit my teaching job and found myself a full time engraver. And yes it became a job. And yes it takes an amount of discipline to make myself sit down and engrave on those day when I just don't feel like doing it. Yes all those negatives are there. The biggest one for me is just what Bruno said. I have a whole list of projects planned out in my head that I would like to do for myself and I probably won't live long enough to finish half of them.

Here is my reality check. A man has to do something for a living. Out of all the jobs I have had this one is a blessing. I was a baby photographer for Sears at one time. Boy let me tell you was that a miserable job but it paid the bills. I worked in a factory that reconditioned drill bits and milling cutters for large manufacturers like Boeing and Lockheed Martin. 8 hours a day feeding drill bits into a collet on a machine that resharpened them as fast as you could go. I ran 10,000 bits a day on average. That job down right sucked! I was a public school teacher for about 6 years. Much nicer than the other two jobs but still no picnic.

Yes, it definitely has become a job. But I wake up every morning glad that I am able to work and pay my bills doing something I actually like. It is never as sweet and fancy free as it is when its a hobby, but being able to make a living doing something you like is worlds beyond being stuck in a job you hate.

Ray

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Originally Posted by RayCover

Yes, it definitely has become a job. But I wake up every morning glad that I am able to work and pay my bills doing something I actually like. It is never as sweet and fancy free as it is when its a hobby, but being able to make a living doing something you like is worlds beyond being stuck in a job you hate.

Ray

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Ray I'm printing that out and sticking it on my wall so I see it every day. I don't care if I get rich or anything like that. That feeling of being able to so something you like/love for a living has got to be great. That's going to be my mantra as I go through the "it's time to switch careers" phase of my life.

I just fount this thread. Pretty much all the comments and suggestions above are correct. Ray and Mike have a lot of good input.

Several years ago, a few of the knife makers were sitting around in the hotel lobby after the Knifemaker's Guild Show closed for the day. We were pondering this very same question. We decided to go through the membership list and see how many members were actually making knives as their sole source of income. The requirements were: No other source of income from a second job, spouse, retirement, trust fund, etc. They also has to be either married, or supporting a family. So, single guys living like bums didn't count. Out of over 400 Knifemaker's Guild members, we could come up with only seven.

That was twelve, or so, years ago. I'm sure things have changed some since then. Yet, it shows that it is possible, but it isn't easy. I got so burned out with the rat race of the whole thing, I made knife making my second job and went in to aviation, full time, just after we did our little survey. Five years ago, I decided I liked being with my wife and family more than flying. I'm now back to the knives and razors full time. Yes, I was one of the seven.

My only real advice is pretty simple. 1. Remember it is a business and treat it as such. A glorified hobby will not survive. 2. Don't quit your day job until the knife/razor making is so profitable that your day job is keeping you from making money. I have a pile of other little ideas, but the first two pretty much cover it.

I hope this helps.