Too much of a good thing: choosing the right steel

Up until now, I've mainly worked with 3 types of steel: old file, O1, and 52100
I make not only razors, but also kitchen knives and general purpose stuff. And I am still experimenting with various ways of doing things. I'm interested more in learning things than selling things, and see the latter as a way to finance the former.

Anyway, I work with 52100 only to have something different from O1. Of course it is different from old file too, but given the unknowns in old file, old file is different from old file as well, and not a known reference. To be correct, I use a bit of niolox too, which is stainless knife steel. I only use it rarely, and only because it is wife-proof. I don't really like it, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do when he wants to make a knife for his wife.

This weekend I heat treated pieces of O1 and 52100, and only tempered them to the point before I got straw color. In other words, barely tempered at all. 180 degrees celsius is what the thermometer I'd put in the oven read. And I had to cut the tempering short at 30 minutes because my wife needed the oven to bake bread, and she is boss of the kitchen. Force majeure.

Then I let them air cool and took them to the grinder. The O1 was hard, obvisously. But I could grind it and shape it. The 52100 was a different story altogether. It mocked me. After 10 minutes of grinding, the piece was just a hair thinner than what I started with. As hard as it may be to believe, my 40 grit belt was only giving it a mirror shine. I've now re-tempered the things to straw. We'll see how that goes.

Steel is like jewelry and people sometimes want something exotic, just for the sake of being different. From a practical point of view, I think sometimes, something is just the wrong tool for the job. If you look at the requirements of a razors edge, the major requirement is high hardness and a small grain size. Toughness doesn't really come into the picture much. O1 may be less tough than 52100, but for shaving this doesn't matter. However, for working it, it does. A lot. Making a 52100 razor is much more work than making an O1 razor. And then there is honing to consider. Honing a 61 or 62 HRc 52100 blade is going to get boring, tedious, and likely to give you a tennis elbow.

I'm not sure I am trying to make a specific point here. Just sharing an observation that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing, and not choosing the right steel for the job just means you spend more time and more money to make the same thing in terms of requirements of the end product. Sometimes, less is more.

I recently bought some 52100. How're you liking that? Everything I read about it suggests a somewhat complex heat treat to get the best performance out of it (Although people also talk about O1 having a more finicky heat treat to be honest and lots of people do nothing complex with it and still get good results).


But yeah the right steel for the right application. Don't build a giant big chopping knife out of S30V (or a razor for that matter), and don't make something that should be small and slicey out of 3V because it'd be wasted on that application.

I think people overcomplicate things sometimes. I go for a color between dull red and dull orange and hold it there for a minute or 2, depending on thickness. Then quench in maize oil. Maize, because that was the cheapest.

This works for O1 and 52100. I realize that this way, I cannot say whether the hardness is going to be 60 or 61, but from a practical pov, who cares? The test I did last weekend proves that this method leads to hardness and toughness that is incredible for 52100, despite the simple heat treatment.

That's good to hear. I've got a bowie sized laminated billet (core steel 52100 and outer layers out of Harley Davidson Damascus) sitting in my closet that I've been affraid to touch for about 2 years now.

Planning on getting to that piece sometime soon though and making a nice BIG knife for myself out of it.

52100 is a fickle mistress. Not so bad if you're only grinding out a blade, but forging this stuff requires attention to temperatures or grain growth will become a problem that is more difficult to solve than with simple methods or simpler steels. Thermal cycling to reset this steel takes a long time. This is more or less true for all chromium containing steels as the chromium wants to form strong large carbides and it requires higher than normal temperatures (or really good thermal controls) to avoid the problem. Usually that also means more money spent on the technical control side of heat.

So the multiple annealing cycles I'm planning on doing should be just what the doctor ordered then.

This kind of all ties in with Glenn's post of This month's Tip. Keeping it simpler and not over complicating things. Trying to do that with more aspects of life at the moment. As Bruno said - the application of the steel should determine the choice. No point trying to make a razor indestructable. i made a few out of CPMS30V because i had it on hand. Should have saved it for hard duty knives and saved a lot of time and effort. Generally Humans tend to over-complicate because it seems to be in our nature.
Adam

True, it took me a while to understand some metallurgy basics (I still understand only very little) before I finally understood why you see so few stainless razors and so many in simple carbon steel. And why so many EDC knives in S30V and so few in simple carbon steels. Down the line it all makes sense now though.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

... I only use it rarely, and only because it is wife-proof. I don't really like it, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do when he wants to make a knife for his wife.

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rubber? plastic? or one of these 2.50 € - things from the supermarket.

... whenever I enter a woman's kitchen I am stunned by the bad quality and dullness of the knives available. I never ever met a girl/woman using sharp and/or quality knives. Well, one of my friends has a set of nice Güde-knives - probably because they have been well presented in the "Manufactum"-catalog and her husband fell for them - but each of them has at least one chip and none has ever seen the sharpening steel which she probably thinks is the gear-shift for the knife-block.

Even worse: they seem to like their knives the way they are. When I offer to take care of one, they get that scary look and say "no, no it's fine the way it is".

I guess, they all make tomato juice with their knives.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

... And I had to cut the tempering short at 30 minutes because my wife needed the oven to bake bread, and she is boss of the kitchen. Force majeure.

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It's her room. You're only guest there.

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Originally Posted by DDTech

Even worse: they seem to like their knives the way they are. When I offer to take care of one, they get that scary look and say "no, no it's fine the way it is".

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Eh, no :)
She likes the knives scary sharp. If she complains, it's because the knives are no longer slicing effortlessly.
But she doesn't like cleaning them immediately, so niolox fits the bill just right.

Yeah, Niolox would do fine for that application.

My wife doesn't mind rinsing and drying the knife after use. So we've got laminated Blue Paper Steel at RC63 in our kitchen :-)

i know this is an old thread so sorry for bumping this but i used some 52100 and had the opposite problem. i bought a slab of this stuff and got it all laser cut and now im having issues treating it... i had them rockwell tested and got 54-59, i knew i had a problem when i shaved with the blade and the hairs were damaging the edge lmao... so now im back in the shop only using 01 from here on, from a suggestion i had from a memeber here is what im going to live by and he mentioned looking at the industrial purpose of the steel and use metals that are used to cut, since 52100 is ball bearings im not going to use the material any longer... but for now i am sending this stuff off to a local company to harden for me...

I would bet that you didn't get it hot enough or let it soak enough.
Butch uses 52100 for anything that isn't stainless and he has made several razors with it.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I would bet that you didn't get it hot enough or let it soak enough.
Butch uses 52100 for anything that isn't stainless and he has made several razors with it.

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I HT at 1600 realized it didn't harden then bumped it up 25 degrees all the way up to 1675, I thought I had hardened steel but when I got it tested they didn't get as hard as I like them to be.. I also heard that there are decarb issues with 53100 and I wasn't using tool wrap so I'm almost wondering if I lost too much carbon on my normalizing cycles... I'm sending off for heat treatment on the rest of here blanks..

I remember Mike Blue telling me when I was beginning: Stay with simple steels, they will keep you busy and are plenty good enough. I still use 1095 a LOT and O1 is my second go to. I am just now venturing into the other steels, of which Hitachi Blue steel is really getting my interest. I've got quite a few steels here at home to "try", some niolox, 52100, and Alabama Damascus to name a few.

Even though this is a old thread brought back to life...it stands true as does most bladesmithing stuff that is tried and true.

I tend to shun exotic steels, but I honestly have always had a hankering to try a razor made from the material David Boye uses. I believe that today he uses Cast Dendritic Cobalt with zero forging.

That said, I doubt I'll ever get a razor made from it.

Oh well......


Regards

Christian

If you want to be a good at something, stick to that something. Wootz has caught my fancy and I've literally gone through thousands of dollars of wootz easily. I've come a long way and there are still things I need to improve at or where I don't know as much as I would want to know.

It doesn't really matter what takes your fancy, as long as you get to know it so well that if you start at A and have to go to B, you know exactly how to get there no matter where A or B are. you'll mess up along the way and waste steel and time but you'll get there. That is why it is important to pick something and stay with it. If you go from O1 to O2 to 1095 to 52100 to an old file again, it's hard to become consistent.

This thread is really cool to read. OP then and now is quite an inspiration to say the least!

52100 is by far my favorite steel, but a PITA to forge. At forging temp it doesn't move very well at all, even with a power hammer, and a very bad idea to raise temps to forge easier as this will cause grain growth. Add in multiple thermal cycles while forging and it's not a fast steel to forge either. Heat treat is not bad, but not as easy or simple as some of the other steels. All that said, what I've found is it really likes heavy stock reduction, and lots of heat cycles. When all is said and done it will produce a blade that will hold an edge for a long time, takes a very very fine edge, is very easy to sharpen and is pretty tough. But there is a lot that can go wrong if care hasn't been taken at each stage of the process, it's not a beginner steel for sure.

For something that works well and is not nearly as much work, I'm really liking 80CRV2. I'm slowly using it to replace my stock of 1084 and O1.

Hey, I'm glad I found this post. N.J. Steel Baron suggested the 52100 to make a razor with, but I see that, for most of you smiths, it is a pain to work. What is probably the best, all-round, easiest to make a razor with, that really holds a fine, hard edge. I want to have or to make myself, a near wedge/real wedge razor. I want it to be about 1 3/8" wide and 3" long and a bit over 1/4" thick at the spine, like maybe 5/16" or 11/32.

I haven't tried a razor from it yet, but so far am really liking 80CRV2. It's been called 1084+ and 52100 light, but it's very tough and holds a good edge.

Oh, ok. Thanks for the heads-up on that 80 steel. I'll go check it out now on NJ Steel Baron.

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Originally Posted by WILDMAN1

Hey, I'm glad I found this post. N.J. Steel Baron suggested the 52100 to make a razor with, but I see that, for most of you smiths, it is a pain to work. What is probably the best, all-round, easiest to make a razor with, that really holds a fine, hard edge. I want to have or to make myself, a near wedge/real wedge razor. I want it to be about 1 3/8" wide and 3" long and a bit over 1/4" thick at the spine, like maybe 5/16" or 11/32.

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That would be O2. But you can forget about that in the US. O1 however is a good steel to begin with because it is good allround, as is 1086 or 1084.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

That would be O2. But you can forget about that in the US. O1 however is a good steel to begin with because it is good allround, as is 1086 or 1084.

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Bruno, some folks have been chatting with a guy who works for one of the German companies about O2. He used to work for BU/Voestalpine and was the point guy for getting the thicker AEB-L stock to the knife supply companies. Hopefully, we can score some of that for damascus because as you probably know, it etches super dark because of all of that manganese. One smith over here recently got some O2 and did a three steel damascus blade of O1, O2 and L6.

Folks who have worked with it a lot will tell you that 52100 is a bit more sensitive to austenizing temps than other steels we like to use. Above 1500F, you get bearing steel with big chromium carbides and pretty high abrasion resistance for a "simple" steel. At 1475F below the 'saturation point" you get very fine grain and fewer/smaller chromium carbides, but very high as quenched hardness and high fine edge stability like the kitchen knife guys love.

Bruno, Love your work BTW...

O1 is a fantastic steel for razors if the Ht is done corectly.

I know ppl pay more for exotic steels but not all steels are made to sustain a razors edge.

I had the pleasure a while back to play wit a Stainless CPM S35VN blade.

It shaved realy nice...it belonged to a friend that just got it.
I used it for a while and when i wanted to hone it on my usual stone progression it was a nightmare....
I had to get in contact with the maker to ask how to hone it and indeed some CBN and Diamond sprays and stropping later i saw the light.

I came to this hobby from the Knife forums and although i am not a maker i have read much about steel and it's properties.
Stainless is an option. The AEBL steel is the same steel taht Friodur ws made of and most of the stainless razors back in the day.
The problem with taht steel is carbides and grain reduction.
Most brands used a double temper cicle and a criogenic cicle in between to refine the grain of the steel so it could be sharpend easier and take a finer edge.
Friodur wa the name that J.A.Henckels gave to the process.
Ice tempered frozen steel was Dovo's name for it
Frozen temper was Hess brand's name for it...
Frozen Steel Was Puma's
and the list goes on...the fact that almost every Stainless manufacturer had a name for the double temper and crio cicle used for heat treating their blades has me thinking that the crio cicle is realy important and you should think about that if you plan to make stainless baldes.

Also take in consideration that a true cryo quench must take the steel beneath a certain temperature point...same as propper heat treatment...this poin must be reached or else no transformation occurs.
−180 °C (−301 °F) is recomended...
This is an interesting article about cryogenic tretment.
http://www.airproducts.co.jp/~/media...3005019GLB.pdf

From my limited experience as a knife and razor collector i come to understand that a a steel can be heat treated 2 ways...
1) perfect
2) any other way
And this reflects in the overall performance of the steel. If you get the geometry of the blade just right and you nail the heat treatment the razor is going to be a work of art.

A HRC testing unit for your blades and looking into various heat treating grafics could get you more out or the O1 you are used to work with,
Also if you plan on doing crio you can do crio to the O1 as well as for the AEBL...

This is a realy nice and easy read when you have some spare time.
It's right up your ball park -

"Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others
who Heat Treat and Forge Steel
John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Iowa State University
March 2005 "

http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

I have come to love simple high carbon steel razors because they take a finer edge with ease.

Think of Iwasaki and how much he managed to get out of sweedish steel and tamahagane using optimal heat treatment and HRC testing:)

And if you real must use exotic steel...pick it wisely.

A simple stainless steel like AEB-L really only "requires" dry ice temperatures for the "cold" treatment. When you get into the more complex alloys like an Elmax, you need to be about 20 or so degrees colder minimum than say dry ice and acetone can get so you need LN for that. For purposes of finishing up martensite formation with AEB-L, you only have to get it to the target temp and stabilize. Now if you want to do the eta carbide voodoo, that takes longer and requires true "cryo" temps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

Bruno, Love your work BTW...

O1 is a fantastic steel for razors if the Ht is done corectly.

I know ppl pay more for exotic steels but not all steels are made to sustain a razors edge.

I had the pleasure a while back to play wit a Stainless CPM S35VN blade.

It shaved realy nice...it belonged to a friend that just got it.
I used it for a while and when i wanted to hone it on my usual stone progression it was a nightmare....
I had to get in contact with the maker to ask how to hone it and indeed some CBN and Diamond sprays and stropping later i saw the light.

I came to this hobby from the Knife forums and although i am not a maker i have read much about steel and it's properties.
Stainless is an option. The AEBL steel is the same steel taht Friodur ws made of and most of the stainless razors back in the day.
The problem with taht steel is carbides and grain reduction.
Most brands used a double temper cicle and a criogenic cicle in between to refine the grain of the steel so it could be sharpend easier and take a finer edge.
Friodur wa the name that J.A.Henckels gave to the process.
Ice tempered frozen steel was Dovo's name for it
Frozen temper was Hess brand's name for it...
Frozen Steel Was Puma's
and the list goes on...the fact that almost every Stainless manufacturer had a name for the double temper and crio cicle used for heat treating their blades has me thinking that the crio cicle is realy important and you should think about that if you plan to make stainless baldes.

Also take in consideration that a true cryo quench must take the steel beneath a certain temperature point...same as propper heat treatment...this poin must be reached or else no transformation occurs.
−180 °C (−301 °F) is recomended...
This is an interesting article about cryogenic tretment.
http://www.airproducts.co.jp/~/media...3005019GLB.pdf

From my limited experience as a knife and razor collector i come to understand that a a steel can be heat treated 2 ways...
1) perfect
2) any other way
And this reflects in the overall performance of the steel. If you get the geometry of the blade just right and you nail the heat treatment the razor is going to be a work of art.

A HRC testing unit for your blades and looking into various heat treating grafics could get you more out or the O1 you are used to work with,
Also if you plan on doing crio you can do crio to the O1 as well as for the AEBL...

This is a realy nice and easy read when you have some spare time.
It's right up your ball park -

"Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others
who Heat Treat and Forge Steel
John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Iowa State University
March 2005 "

http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf

I have come to love simple high carbon steel razors because they take a finer edge with ease.

Think of Iwasaki and how much he managed to get out of sweedish steel and tamahagane using optimal heat treatment and HRC testing:)

And if you real must use exotic steel...pick it wisely.

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